Mattel introduces new line of anti-vaccine Barbies complete with viruses and bacteria

Mattel introduces new line of anti-vaccine Barbies complete with viruses and bacteria

LOS ANGELES, CA – Mattel announced a new line of Barbies today to much fanfare among conspiracy theorists: the anti-vaccine Barbie.

There will be 4 dolls in total: Measles Barbie, Mumps Barbie, Rubella Barbie and Polio Barbie (complete with wheelchair).

“We are really hoping to corner the market on the science illiterate,” said Mattel Spokesman Ken Rothwell. “We know a lot of anti-vaccers are actually fairly wealthy as well as fairly stupid. In a nutshell, the perfect consumer.”

The controversy surrounding the dolls is around the fact that random dolls will be filled with samples of the viruses or bacteria. This has several public health experts worried and crying foul, while anti-vaccers are excited about the idea.

So far the dolls are selling especially well in California.

“This is great! Now my little angel can play with a doll AND get natural immunity to potentially life-threatening infections,” said Sherry McCarthy, wealthy idiot. “I’m picking up Polio Barbie today on the way home from work.”


  • weezmgk

    OOH! I want Iron Lung Barbie!

    • shay simmons

      At age about six I lost a perfectly good Penny Brite when my best friend and I gave her the ‘measles’ with red fingernail polish. It didn’t occur to us that this would not wash off.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        Red felt-tip pens were the undoing of my sister’s dolls, for the same reason.

        I wonder if today’s youngsters feel deprived, or do they also play ‘diseases’ with their toys, despite not having to suffer the sickness themselves?

        • shay simmons

          I’d guess the answer to that would be no. A little girl in the early 60s had ample opportunity to observe a variety of childhood diseases that today’s kids are spared.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Yep. We all had the diseases and, sadly, some didn’t survive.

            After every epidemic, there would be at least one new empty seat at school – and ours was a tiny primary school, fewer than 120 kids.

          • Urrgh…disqus needs reactions.

        • I was too much of a tomboy but my cousins’ dolls had broken arms/broken legs and the like.

          • Mike Stevens

            “I was too much of a tomboy but my cousins’ dolls had broken arms/broken legs and the like.”
            Blame the vaccines.

  • Vaccines are dangerous and cause brain damage (autism, schizophrenia) and immune disorders (allergies, autoimmunity). Science has proven that autism and schizophrenia are caused by immune activation during brain development. When activated by an infection or vaccine, the immune system produces proteins (cytokines) that cause defects in brain development. This can manifest as autism or other brain disorders (e.g. depression, ADHD, schizophrenia). Vaccines are designed to cause immune activation and stimulate the specific cytokines that cause this damage. Google “immune activation autism” and you will be amazed at what the science shows.

    Immune activation has also been proven to cause the physiological damage observed in autism: mitochondrial dysfunction, damaged/missing Purkinje cells, microbiome disruption (dysbiosis), angiogenesis (excessive blood vessel growth), and long-term brain inflammation.

    It is proven beyond any doubt that autism is caused by immune activation during brain development. Even the specific cytokines that cause autism are now known: interleukin-6 and interleukin-17a. IL-6 is produced in the brain by vaccine adverse reactions.

    The greatest danger is probably aluminum adjuvant. Aluminum-containing vaccines have been little-studied in relation to autism. It is proven that aluminum adjuvant causes brain and immune system damage at dosages infants receive from vaccines. It is proven that Al adjuvant nanoparticles travel into the brain after injection, and stay there. Also, Al adjuvant has been shown to cause the specific type of immune activation (the cytokine IL-6) proven to cause autism. These results have been replicated several times. Most vaccines contain aluminum.

    Only the MMR vaccine has been much studied in relation to autism. But every one of the MMR-autism studies is fatally flawed because of selection bias. They are not randomized or properly controlled. Consequently, children with pre-existing neuro- or immune disorders (caused by prior Al-containing vaccines) are concentrated in the “control” group of these studies. This makes the damage caused by the MMR vaccine unobservable in the MMR-autism studies. All of the MMR-autism studies have this systematic bias.

    The most dangerous vaccines are likely the ones that contain aluminum, and are given at the youngest ages, when the brain is most sensitive to immune activation. So, the Hep B vaccine, which contains aluminum and is given on the day of birth, is probably the most dangerous of all. There are only two studies of the Hep B vaccine and autism, and they both found an association with autism.

    The MMR vaccine stimulates an immune signal (a “chemokine” called MCP-1) that causes white blood cells to transport aluminum particles (received from prior vaccines) into the brain. Hence, the MMR vaccine may greatly amplify the brain damage caused by aluminum adjuvant.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      I love that you are writing such drivel on a page which is popular with actual scientists.

      Such sciency-sounding words! Such complicated nonsense! Like a toddler who has just discovered a medical dictionary.

      You might impress the pro-disease child haters cult – they have no education which stuck, poor things – but we’ll just be sitting over here laughing at you.

      • Prove that what I wrote above is “drivel”.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          Not how it works, sunshine.

          You have to prove that it *isn’t*.

          You have made a list of sciency-sounding claims with no evidence.

          Citation most definitely Needed.

          • Already been done. See our website. Citations are there. vaccinepapers org

          • Tigger_the_Wing


            You made the claims *here*.

            Defend them *here*.

            I’ll have fun laughing at those, too – I’m looking forward to how you propose to explain all the contradictory ’causes’.

          • Its about 50 pages worth of material. Not going to copy/paste it here.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Its about 50 pages worth of material. Not going to copy/paste it here.”

            OK, just post the studies in humans/pregnant women showing vaccines produce immune activation which then causes autism in their offspring.

            You can do that, right?
            After all, that is your claim, so I presume you have what we call… “evidence”?

          • You can read here:

            Also, FYI, the CDC recommends multiple vaccines for pregnant women (DPT flu).

            Here is what Dr Patterson at Cal Tech (a leader in this field) had to say about that, in 2006:

            “Finally, I want to ask a question that’s come up in the literature in the last few years—should we really be promoting universal maternal vaccination? The flu vaccine has been recommended routinely to pregnant women in the United States since 1957. The official policy of the Centers for Disease Control states that “administration of vaccines to women seeking prenatal care is an opportunity
            for preventative intervention that should not be wasted.” Now you might say, “Well, of course,
            you don’t want to get the flu if you’re pregnant!” But remember that double-stranded RNA experi- ment—we activated the immune system, and it caused all these downstream effects on the fetus. And what does a vaccination do? It activates the immune system. That’s the point of vaccination.
            In practice, not all pregnant women receive flu shots, and I think that universal vaccination of pregnant women could get us into a whole new
            set of problems.”

          • Chris

            VP (again!): “You can read here…”

            What part of we are not going to click on your silly cite do you not understand. If you have citations post them here.

            “The flu vaccine has been recommended routinely to pregnant women in the United States since 1957. ”

            Bwah, ha ha ha.. that is hilarious! I was born in 1957, and my last child was born in 1994… at no time was I ever offered an influenza vaccine because I was able or wanted to become pregnant. As I mentioned earlier today I had a nasty flu while pregnant with first child, who is autistic. I also had a bad flu early in second pregnancy, but that young man is doing quite well. So your mileage may vary.

            So why should we believe you? You obviously have no qualifications and just post silly obscure articles on your website.

          • CDC vaccine recommendations for pregnant women:


            Dr Patterson is a respected scientist that pioneered the research on immune activation and autism. Some of his papers on immune activation have hundreds of citations.

            Above quote is from this article by Dr Patterson:


          • Chris

            Dude, can you not do simple math? I told you the year of my birth.. 1957 (yes, I am almost sixty years old!). And the year my youngest child was born, 1994! Why would you think a website in 2016 would have any relevance more than two decades ago?

            And that page re-iterated exactly what I posted. Plus there is no Patterson mentioned on it.

            “Some of his papers on immune activation have hundreds of citations.”

            Prove it. Make sure it is at least on primates.

            What you are demonstrating is that you post random websites without checking the content, plus you have absolutely no qualifications to pontificate on science and statistics. Seriously you do not seem to understand the internets were not really a thing in 1988 or 1994… I think we got our first phone modem when youngest was about a year old.

          • Both murine and monkey models have been studied, with the same results.

            Activation of the maternal immune system during pregnancy alters behavioral development of rhesus monkey offspring.

            Maternal immune activation yields offspring displaying mouse versions of the three core symptoms of autism.

            Your specific experience isnt important. Im interested in the CDCs recommendations TODAY.

            The links I post are definitely not random.

            Patterson is the author of the article. It states:

            “Paul Patterson, the Biaggini Professor of Biological
            Sciences at Caltech and a research professor of
            neurobiological surgery at the Keck School of Medicine
            at USC, got his BA in biology at Grinnell College
            in Iowa in 1965, and his PhD from Johns Hopkins
            in 1970. He was a professor of neurobiology at the
            Harvard Medical School before coming to Caltech in
            1983, following in the footsteps of his uncle, the late
            Professor of Geochemistry Clair Patterson. This article
            was adapted by Douglas Smith from a Watson lecture
            given May 17, 2005, at which Patterson was introduced
            by Caltech trustee Ted Jenkins (BS ’65, MS
            ’66), who has a schizophrenic son, and who with his
            wife, Ginger, underwrote the cost of the mice for the
            beginning of this work”

          • Chris

            All you are doing is proving that preventing infection in pregnant women is very very important. One way to do that is with vaccination.

            Prof. Patterson’s one brief mention in his paper ten years ago does not obliterate the actual recent science by several others.

          • No because its the immune activation per se that causes the brain damage. Vaccines cause immune activation.

            There are hundreds of papers on the brain-damaging effects of immune activation. Much is now known about the cytokines responsible for the effect. And these cytokines are stimulated in the brain by vaccine adverse reactions.

          • Mike Stevens

            “There are hundreds of papers on the brain-damaging effects of immune activation caused by infections during pregnancy

            There… Fixed that for you.

          • Almost all of the studies of immune activation use non-infectious immune stimulating substances (e.g. LPS or poly-IC). No infection is involved.

          • Mike Stevens

            Double Doh!
            Where the hell do you think LPS comes from?
            Answer: Bacteria.
            Poly IC is a surrogate for viral RNA.

            Thanks for agreeing that bacterial and viral infections cause immune activation, and therefore cause schizophrenia and autism!

            How then to stop this?
            Answer: Avoid infections and VACCINATE!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Another 1957 person here; my eldest was born in ’81, and my youngest in ’93.

            No vaccines were ever offered during any of my pregnancies.

            Getting ‘flu vaccines before I was diagnosed with chronic bronchitis was just about impossible, but since my heart conditions were diagnosed I’ve been at the head of the queue every year.

            Until the research carried out by Kanner in the USA and Asperger in Germany, during WWII, there was no such diagnosis as ‘autism’, so no-one could have been diagnosed as autistic; and Asperger’s research wasn’t recognised until Lorna Wing translated it and it was eventually accepted into the diagnostic canon, so there was no ‘Asperger Syndrome’ until the mid-nineties.

            There is always some inertia in any system, so each time it took many years before diagnosticians stopped using the old labels and started using the new – and in 2013, both ‘autism’ and ‘Asperger Syndrome’ were replaced by ‘Autism Spectrum Disorder’, or ASD.

            Rates of other diagnoses have dropped as the rate of ASDs diagnoses have climbed, showing that autistic children and those with autistic traits are more likely to be diagnosed as such than given learning disability labels.

            The rise in the number of people on this planet, and with it the rise in the number and funding of researchers and diagnosticians in this area, have led to the increased ability to recognise autism as well as the increased ability to protect our offspring from dangerous diseases via vaccine.

            At the same time, and for much the same reasons, there has been a massive increase in vehicular traffic of all kinds, from cars to boats to planes; also at the same time, there has been an unprecedented surge in illustrated T-shirts; something else which didn’t exist when my grandfather was a child.

            Correlation has nothing to do with causation in any of these cases – without supporting evidence, you’d be as well blaming T-shirts for the brief period of time during which autism diagnoses rose rapidly (inevitable result of trying to catch up with a previously undiagnosed condition).

          • Chris

            “No vaccines were ever offered during any of my pregnancies.”

            To add to that: my oldest was in the Infant Intermediate Care Unit at the local Children’s Hospital where he had been transported after his seizures (he spent the first night in Infant Intensive Care)… a nurse asked me if I had an illness while I was pregnant, when I answered I had had a terrible flu she dismissed that is “no, that would not have done it, it was not like rubella.”

            “Rates of other diagnoses have dropped as the rate of ASDs diagnoses
            have climbed, showing that autistic children and those with autistic
            traits are more likely to be diagnosed as such than given learning
            disability labels.”

            In 1991 a neurologist assured me that my then three year old nonverbal son was not autistic, apparently being able to smile and laugh was an indication “he was going to be okay.” He had various diagnoses over the years, my favorite being “static encephalopathy”, which in neuro speak means “we know there is something wrong with his brain, but we don’t know what, but it is not changing.”

            He finally got an autism diagnosis eighteen months ago.

          • Dont believe ME. Believe the science. Dont take my word for it.

            If you have a different interpretation of the scientific results, then explain what it is.

          • Chris

            What science? All you have posted is that pregnant women should not get sick. What is the best way to avoid that: vaccination.

            You don’t even understand what you cut an paste.

            Now for the third time: please post the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present American MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.

          • See the VP website. Ridiculous that you are so scared to look at information you disagree with. Your closed mind is YOUR problem, not mine.

            We do not sell advertising, so you dont need to be concerned about us making any money from your traffic.

          • Mike Stevens

            Sorry, but among that screed of antivax propaganda I can’t see a single paper which shows vaccination in pregnancy causes autism or schizophrenia in humans via immune activation.
            Please cite the study, if there is one.

            All you have done is join up dots where none exist, and added 2+2 and claimed the answer is 53.

          • Chris

            All I see he has proven is that pregnant women should avoid infection by being fully vaccinated! 🙂

          • Dr Patterson-a leading researcher in this field-disagrees with you on that. And our understanding of HOW immune activation causes damage (via cytokine expression) shows your opinion to be wrong.

          • Mike Stevens

            His inconsistency is plain. When asked for evidence, he posts some obscure animal study which doesn’t support his claim, or some speculative quotation from some doctor like Patterson who is just on a fishing expedition.
            Yet when I point out how much more dangerous measles is than the MMR, he demands “controlled studies”!

          • Sonja Henie

            That type of behavior seems to be in the anti-vax manual. I don’t know how many times I’ve been asked for peer-reviewed studies by people like Ted Kuntz, who is a member of that anti-vax group in Canada that lists “Whale” as a “good source”. There have been a few others, too, who did the same type of thing.

          • AutismDadd

            They simply want you to back up what you spray, which you don’t.

          • Chris

            And then responds with blathering about how the study is not quite right, when all he has done is give random studies on rodents that are not even about vaccines.

            Has anyone yet figured out how to diagnose autism in a mouse?

          • Mike Stevens

            They can do cubed roots in their head.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Yep. And know which day of the week it was for any date.

            I think that the only cubed roots I’ve ever seen in a mouse’s head were diced carrots.

          • Vaccination during pregnancy or in developing infant should be expected to cause autism and schizophrenia based on our current understanding of how cytokines affect the brain, and how vaccines impact cytokine expression.

            There are lots of controlled animal experiments on this.

            This one for example shows that vaccines affect brain development via disturbed cytokine levels:

            Neonatal vaccination with bacillus Calmette-Guérin and hepatitis B vaccines modulates hippocampal synaptic plasticity in rats.

            Interestingly, it shows that CG vaccine has beneficial effects on brain development, and Hep B vaccine has adverse effects. Difference is due to the TYPE of immune activation caused by each vaccine. CG causes Th1 and Hep B causes Th2. All the aluminum containing vaccines cause Th2.

          • Mike Stevens

            I see you have nothing but cherrypicked animal studies which you say support your claims.
            I am not seeing any human studies confirming that vaccination in pregnancy causes autism or schizophrenia, sorry.
            If you have noe evidence, but just speculation, then pack it in.
            As I said, natural infections provide far more of an immune challenge than do the vaccines.
            You got nothing, basically.

            PS in the medical field we call Bacille Calmette-Guerin “BCG”, not “CG”.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I, and two of my three younger siblings, were vaccinated with BCG as infants because my father had nearly died from TB as a teen, and no-one knew back in the fifties if TB would recur after being fought off with those new-fangled anti-biotics.

            My youngest sister, who got her BCG as a teen (it was usually given to teens when I was growing up) and I are autistic, like my father (and *his* father) – the other two aren’t. Explain that.

            Oh, you can’t, can you?

            You made the laughable claim that white blood cells carry aluminium into the brain.

            How? White blood cells are orders of magnitude larger than the largest molecule that can cross the BBB.

          • Chris

            I asked for studies on the present American MMR vaccine, and you produce that drivel? BCG has been used for decades longer than any MMR vaccine, but was not on the American pediatric schedule at any time during the last half century.

          • Sonja Henie

            When you mentioned Caltech (not Cal Tech, take note), I got curious. My spouse is a graduate.

            Caltech is NOT a medical institution of any kind. They’re big on basic research, stuff like that. They’re no leader in vaccine science. He seems to have mostly researched these legendary autistic mice. So he was expressing an OPINION. An opinion that was not backed up by research. If anything, he was a victim of Dunning-Kruger. And, as is usual for you AVs, no source.

          • Chris

            Just out of curiosity does it include this SafeMinds funded paper:
            Examination of the safety of pediatric vaccine schedules in a non-human primate model: assessments of neurodevelopment, learning, and social behavior.

            It would be something, since SafeMinds is ignoring it. Kind of part of the cherry picking that is quite common on certain child hating disease promoting websites.

            Which we are sure to not give you any page hits, despite how much you beg us to come visit your page of random sciencey stuff that means nothing.

          • we dont sell advertising, so clicks dont benefit us.

            The safeminds study was inadequately powered to detect an autism effect. I reviewed it here:

            No we dont cite that safeminds s paper or any of the prior papers funded by Safeminds.

            No its not “random sciency stuff”. its mostly papers on aluminum adjuvant, immune activation and flaws with the MMR-autism epidemiological studies.

          • Chris

            Please work on your reading comprehension: we are not going to your website. Especially since you are mostly cherry picking material, as your comment clearly reveals

            If you have citations, with valid references to their errors by reputable qualified reviewers cite them here.

          • lol Your closed mind is your problem.

          • Chris

            Prove it. Provide the PubMed indexed studies here that the present American MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella (by the way, congenital rubella syndrome is a known cause of autism).

            Or you can state your real name, and then explain why your education makes you a better judge of immunology, epidemiology and microbiology than the authors of the papers you dismiss. Essentially: who are you and why should we trust you?

          • Measles vaccine is likely safer than wild measles, because measles in the vaccine is attenuated.

            But is wild measles safer or more dangerous than MMR? Thats impossible to say. We dont have good safety studies of MMR. The study outcomes are short term, and studies are not placebo-controlled.

            MMR causes a simultaneous infection with 3 viruses. Evidence shows that this is likely to be much more dangerous than getting the 3 diseases (or vaccines) individually. For example, adding varicella to MMR DOUBLES the risk of febrile seizure. This is a synergistic effect, since varicella VERY rarely causes seizures on its own (i.e. less than the increase it causes when combined with MMR).

          • Chris

            Hmmm… lots of words, and absolutely no verifiable evidence. Try harder. Actually read the words in my comment, or ask someone to explain them to you. The key words are “PubMed indexed” and “present American.” Where did I even mention the MMRV? Do tell me. I seemed to have missed that very short period of history. Which is why I did not include a freaking “V” in my comment! Really, do try to keep up.

            “We dont have good safety studies of MMR.:

            Which MMR? The first American version was introduced in 1971. Apparently they had enough data to change the rubella component to a safer version in 1978. It is like you never even looked for the evidence.

            Seriously, you make claims by blatant assertion and expect us to believe you? Even when you fail to note even the basic history of the vaccine. That is truly pathetic. Do you even have a clue which of the four MMR vaccines were studied in Wakefield’s now retracted 1998 Lancet article? Don’t ask him, he apparently was not aware there was more than one MMR vaccine approved in the UK between 1988 and 1992 (do tell us what happened in 1992 in regards to two UK MMR vaccines).

            So what are your qualifications and why should we trust your website if you get such basic stuff wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong? Or try to divert to a very short lived MMRV vaccine recommendation?

          • MMR and MMRV study. Results like this demonstrate the synergistic risk of combined live virus vaccines.

          • Chris

            Again, where did I mention MMRV? The recommendation was changed so kids only get it after age four or so. Something that you seem to be ignorant of… do try to keep up.

          • Chris

            The MMR vaccine has been used since 1971 in the USA. Provide the PubMed indexed studies dated before 1990 to show you have some actual substance (which has been lacking).

            You do not seem to have read the “Interpretation” bit on that page. Nor did you notice I wrote: “The first American version was introduced in 1971.” A geographical note that you seem to have missed: Canada is not part of the USA. Things in Canada are called “Canadian” not “American.”

            I know, that is true even though they are in North America. Even Mexico is part of North America… but apparently only residents of the United States of America are called “Americans.” I know it is confusing, but it is important when you are talking about vaccines because different versions are used in different countries.

            Really, what are your qualifications that you do not know that Canada and the USA are different countries and could have different vaccines? (oh, Canada actually used an MMR vaccine with different vaccine strains than the USA, so the distinction is important)

          • Mike Stevens

            Hmm…. choices, choices….

            Mum: “Shall I give Johnny the MMRV vaccine?”
            Doc: “Well, if you did it might increase the risk of a febrile convulsion very slightly… by one in every 2800 vaccine shots. But you can just give separate MMR and varicella vax. No worries. And if you don’t vax, the Johnny will get chickenpox, or mumps, or measles, or rubella, and then he’d have a 1 in 100 chance of having a seizure anyway”.
            Mum: “I see. Give the vaccines please!”

          • The primary concerns with vaccines are aluminum adjuvant and immune activation (cytokine expression in the brain). Both cause brain damage. Cytokine surges during early brain development cause autism.

            Our arguments are not based on Wakefields papers or theories. We do not cite any papers by Wakefield.

          • Chris

            Prove it. So far your references have been very silly. Let us make it easy, just show that the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers not paid by the Dwoskin Family Foundation that the DTaP is more dangerous than diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis… on human persons (not mice).

          • The Dwoskin Foundation supports high quality research. Unless you can show methodological flaws, it is valid, peer-reviewed research and is fair game.

          • Chris

            You obviously have no idea how to click on links. No, they are not reputable and Shaw/Tomljenovic are not competent (just read the linked articles!).

          • Chris

            Prove it without Dwoskin funded studies. Make sure the subjects are human.

          • Mike Stevens

            “For example, adding varicella to MMR DOUBLES the risk of febrile
            seizure. This is a synergistic effect, since varicella VERY rarely
            causes seizures on its own (i.e. less than the increase it causes when
            combined with MMR).”

            The risk of febrile convulsions with MMRV as opposed to individual MMR and varicella vaccine is about one excess seizure for every 2,841 doses.

            Yet the risk of a febrile seizure with natural chickenpox comes in around 1% (ie 28 times more common).

            Stop lying to islead people.

          • Citation for natural chickenpox febrile seizure risk please. I suspect this is for hospital-admitted cases, which is not a good comparison. Hospital-admitted cases are not representative.

          • Chris

            “Hospital-admitted cases are not representative.”

            Why? Having dozens of open sores makes a child susceptible to bacterial infection. Why would you ignore this?

            Measles infections suppress the immune system for years. Are you going to ignore the opportunistic secondary infections from this also? Are you a monster that hates kids?

            Here is an idea: provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that any varicella vaccine is more dangerous than chicken pox. Now I have dealt with a six month old baby with chicken pox a year before the vaccine was available, it was complete misery. So your evidence that the varicella vaccine is so horrible better be good. Otherwise I will think you are in favor of torturing children with dozens of itchy open wounds with a high probability of bacterial infection.

            Are that kind of monster who hates babies?

          • Why? Because only a small portion of people infected with varicella are admitted to hospital, or go to hospital (i.e. only the most severe cases).

            The varicella vaccine is associated with an increase in shingles. It causes shingles in groups previously resistant (e.g. young people), because of the inferior immunity provided).

          • Chris

            So what numbers of hospitalizations of suffering children do you think is enough to care about?

            Citations needed for the second paragraph. Be aware that Goldman is neither reputable nor qualified.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            No, adults are given a varicella vaccine to avoid getting shingles. I had one a couple of years ago.

            My daughter, on the other hand, didn’t have the varicella vaccine (shockingly, it still isn’t on the schedule), got chicken pox aged two and shingles when she was five.

            Shingles is caused by the eruption of varicella which has been hiding from the immune system in nerves since the person had chicken pox. It cannot be caused by the vaccine.

          • It does both. The vaccine given to children produces weak immunity, leading to shingles in children. In adults it increases immunity and reduces shingles.

          • Sonja Henie

            What evidence?

          • Mike Stevens

            “But is wild measles safer or more dangerous than MMR? Thats impossible to say.”
            No, it’s easy to say…. It is patently obvious that wild measles is several orders of magnitude more dangerous than MMR vaccine.

          • No controlled studies of MMR to establish this claim. Wild measles is definitely more dangerous than attenuated measles. But when its combined with attenuated mumps and rubella, we dont have good data on the risks.

          • Chris

            The first MMR vaccine was introduced in 1971. Why don’t you think there is no good data when the rubella strain was replaced in 1978 (I gave you a link, have you bothered to read it?)?

            Seriously, you don’t think a vaccine has been adequately studied in the last forty five years? Do you live on Htrae?

          • SlammoFandango

            I wouldn’t at all say it’s been adequately studied for the one singular reason that nobody can point to its long term efficiency.

            Can anyone honestly state that a patient given 2 doses of the MMR 40 years ago, still has immunity similar to what has been claimed?

            I think not.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Can anyone honestly state that a patient given 2 doses of the MMR 40 years ago, still has immunity similar to what has been claimed”

            If they are no longer immune, could you point us to all these outbreaks of measles, mumps and rubella in 50 year old people please?

          • SlammoFandango

            I honestly think people like you truly believe a person with waning immunity or no immunity at all walks among us like a ticking time bomb or something and that at any moment, such a person might spontaneously cause for a measles outbreak. It doesn’t work that way Mike, and instead it is that in order to become contagious one must first be exposed to a contagious person.

            Well, people who are contagious for measles are incredibly rare in this country. Yet truth be told, encounters are so rare that you and I probably never once put the efficacy of the vaccine we received to the test.

            Because the recent annual rates have been maybe 1 in a million in the worst of recent years to 1 in 3 million to even more rare than that. So if we take into account that these people who are 1 out of 1,2,or 3 million people in any given year and whom then also are only themselves contagious for just a few days out of 365, we start to get a perspective for just how rare it would be for any of us to by chance encounter a case of measles during a time when it is in its most contagious state.

            And the same unlikely encounter also extends to all those 50 year-olds out there with waning immunity and whom it was had their last booster maybe 40 years ago. It would be delusional to think the vaccine works its magic so well after 40 years or that alone explains why 50 year-olds aren’t catching measles, rather than the truth that they mainly aren’t actually being exposed except for rare exceptions.

          • Chris

            Claiming studies have been inadequate by a person who made wrong, wrong, wrongety wrong statements about measles/mumps/rubella deaths on this century is just precious. Your Dunning-Kruger Syndrome is showing.

            Hint of why you are still wrong wrong wrongety wrong is that their was no second MMR vaccine given forty years ago. Apparently research showed that a second does was required to boost immunity — and it was almost two decades after the MMR vaccine was introduced.

          • SlammoFandango

            “Apparently research showed that a second dose was required to boost immunity…”

            You really are taking poetic license with the word ‘apparently’. More realistically, the second shot is euphemistically called ‘a booster’ because calling it a ‘backup’ or an ‘insurance injection’ wouldn’t exactly give ‘Mommy’ a sense that the vaccine is foolproof.

            What research did discover was that in a minority of cases, the attenuated live virus sometimes died before eliciting an immune response from the patient. However, it became understood that the odds are quite high for this same type of failure to occur more than once or thus for the vaccine to not elicit an immune response after a second introduction of the attenuated live virus.

            Consequently, a second injection was thus given for good measure however, and for all intents and purposes, the second shot a kid gets as a toddler really doesn’t ‘boost’ anything if it is the first shot accomplished what it was designed to do in the first place. I’m sure you already knew all this but don’t like to ever discuss vaccines always working flawlessly in all applications….But true to form and with many terms bandied about, the euphemism, ‘booster’ as it is used regarding the MMR vaccine and toddlers, is often misleading.

            If the first shot was successful, any subsequent ‘booster’ is pretty much superfluous until or unless it is after a given number years down the road, and once a patient’s initial immunity has started to wane…

          • Chris

            Do you have point other than writing a long winded Nirvana Fallacy?

          • SlammoFandango

            Here’s the version for the neurologically damaged who can’t process more than one concept at a time unless presented in the most simplistic way:

            1) the vaccine doesn’t always work.

            2) It doesn’t ever last a lifetime.

            3) the most obvious reason why people who don’t have immunity aren’t getting sick in droves is because the illness is presently very, very rare.

            4) The proclaimed danger from VPDs is greatly exaggerated….

          • Chris

            So a shorter version of the Nirvana Fallacy.

            One MMR provided immunity for 95%, the second raised it to 99%.

            Sometimes one cannot get immunity even after getting the disease. I got mumps twice, and I know I am not the only one. It is kind of silly to think the vaccine should provided perfect immunity when the disease does not.

            “4) The proclaimed danger from VPDs is greatly exaggerated….”

            Not really. Measles puts about one in ten into the hospital, it was common cause of blindness, it causes other neurological problems and death in about on in a thousand. Mumps used to be major cause of deafness and male sterility. Congenital Rubella Syndrome causes all of the above, plus it is one known cause of autism. That is what the data say. Dismissing it does not make it change.

            Though instead of repeating the Nirvana Fallacy, perhaps you should just provide us the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the MMR vaccine presently used in the United States of America causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.

          • Chris

            “4) The proclaimed danger from VPDs is greatly exaggerated….”

            And the dangers of the vaccine are even more greatly exaggerated.

            Speaking of which, you brought up the very common “3 Billion dollars have been paid out in settlements…” anti-vaccine bit. Have you figured out the little math problem I gave you? You should have figured out to use a calculator. Do tell us how those nasty vaccines are so much more dangerous than the diseases.

          • SlammoFandango

            So you accept 1, 2, & 3. Swell.

          • Chris

            What makes you assume that? Is it because you did not understand what I said in the previous comment? Do you need a definition for Nirvana Fallacy?

            So, did you ever figure out how to read the table of the NVICP statistics, and what the result of dividing the total number of given vaccines by the total number of compensated claims means?

            Also, really do come up with those PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers showing the MMR vaccine presently being used in the United States of America is more dangerous than measles, mumps and rubella.

          • Chris


            Do you think the fool even cares? S/he/it has problems with basic math, logic and science. My favorite are the argument by blatant assertion. Like “vaccines are bad, but we don’t need them since those diseases are rare.”

            Um, idiot, they are rare because of vaccines!

            (my now annoyed attitude is affected by youngest child who moved two time zones away, she was here for two days… but the main goal was to get her cat transported to where she now lives… which is more affordable and future graduate school — instead of being in new apartment, child is at airport hotel — with cat… apparently the bus that goes the 150 miles to city that is both home of state’s capital and largest university does not allow pets… AAARGH! No wonder my dad hates Chicago… sure the airport shuttle goes to Milwaukee, Wisconsin’s largest city… but to its capital. No way. I now hate Chicago.. and I was actually willing to try their pizzas even though the deep dish seemed to be more “casserole” than pizza. Stupid person posting idiotic stuff is just fodder for my anger due to one cancelled flight)

          • No. It’s all about the lurkers.

          • shay simmons

            Peoria Shuttle doesn’t take caged pets?

            Edited to add — we’re talking about Springfield, right?

          • Chris

            O’Hare Airport to Madison, WI, only service animals allowed:

            And the Go Airport Express does not go to Madison:

          • shay simmons

            Darn. I would have welcomed an excuse to spend a day in Chicago.

          • Chris

            With a cat in a carrier? She ended up spending about $200 to stay at O’Hare Hilton, where the cat hid in the tub for a while, and then ran under the bed when food service brought daughter’s dinner.

          • shay simmons

            That’s what the trunk is for.

          • Chris

            I’ll let you explain that to her. She loves that *&^%$#! psycho cat. I am just glad it is no longer in my house as I clean up all the pee puddles on carpet.

            And what makes it worse: that *&^%$#! cat held her urine for the almost thirty hours of leaving our house and getting into daughter’s apartment.

          • shay simmons

            Way OT, but…in 1988 we were preparing to PCS from southern California to the east coast. The original plan was for me to drive my fairly bare-bones pickup across country with the cat and the spousal unit would follow in his nice Olds Cutlass Supreme with both dogs.

            The week before the move I threw my back out and one of his brothers volunteered to fly to the coast, pick up the vehicle and the cat (a large ginger tom with a lot of, shall we say, personality and a loud voice), and drive it to Camp Lejeune.

            In July. With no A/C and a standard shift.

            He made it with the cat intact. This brother in law is a foul-mouthed, gun-toting, male chauvinist redneck but by golly since then I won’t hear a word agin’ him. Greater love etc etc.

          • Chris


            It could be worse… it could have been more than a dozen cats:

          • Chris

            “3) the most obvious reason why people who don’t have immunity aren’t
            getting sick in droves is because the illness is presently very, very

            Wow, that is a very silly thing to say.

            Let me expand a bit more on my first reply to this comment, mostly because you seem to be having a little trouble with basic math (like not answering my question about the ratio of the vaccines given versus NVICP compensated claims).

            I said this: “One MMR provided immunity for 95%, the second raised it to 99%.”

            So what does that mean in a wider population? Well it means that with one MMR vaccine 5% were still vulnerable to getting measles, a very very communicable disease. It is so infectious that almost every American child was infected by age fifteen:

            Now let’s look at numbers you might understand: take a school and assume it has five hundred students. This is the size of a small urban elementary school. Even with 100% vaccine compliance the number of kids vulnerable to measles is twenty five. Even after a second MMR vaccine the number vulnerable to measles is five.

            Now the outbreak that folks bring up this study claiming the MMR vaccine does not work. Well that was in 1984, and in a high school with over 2000 students. So first the MMR vaccine had only been available for thirteen years (1984-1971 = 13) , and most students may have been given an older not as effective vaccine, and definitely not the MMR (only those that were age fourteen and under would have had it, so only the freshman).

            The school had over 2000 students. So even if every student had been given one catch-up MMR vaccine, there would have still been a hundred vulnerable students (2000 x .05 = 100). The linked paper says that the basic measles protection was 90%, which still leaves two hundred vulnerable kids.

            So 70% of the cases where in the vaccinated, but only 2% who were not vaccinated. So 2% out of 2000 is 40 (2000 x .02). They represented 30% of the measles cases. Except the total number of measles cases was under thirty… so it was about nine cases (30 x .3 = 9). Over a quarter of the unvaxed were infected versus less than 1.6% of the vaxxed population ( (40-9) / (2000 – 40) * 100 ). (by the way the numbers are underestimated, the high school had more students, measles infected kids from other schools, but I did not include those school populations, I just kept it to an even “2000”)

            By the way, despite the less than thirty infections, this outbreak along with a few others indicated the numbers would be much better with a second MMR vaccine so that only 1% of the vaccinated would be vulnerable. This is what they concluded by doing some research, something you claimed was not done.

            Though if someone with measles attends a large event like a concert, football game or Disneyland, that 1% could mean that there are a hundred vulnerable people per every ten thousand (10000 x .01 = 100, so lots). This does not even take into account children who are too young to be vaccinated with the MMR vaccine.

            Plus to totally clarify: those who never get an MMR vaccine nor an earlier measles vaccine are 100% vulnerable to measles, mumps and rubella.

            By the way, let me remind you to thank your responsible neighbors who protect your family from diseases by maintaining your community’s immunity to measles, mumps, etc (but not tetanus). The reason there is very little chance of getting certain diseases is due to high vaccination rates. Unfortunately birds of a feather tend to flock together, so disease outbreaks often happen in communities with lower vaccine compliance:

            JAMA. 2016 Mar 15;315(11):1149-58.
            Association Between Vaccine Refusal and Vaccine-Preventable Diseases in the United States: A Review of Measles and Pertussis.

            Pediatrics. 2010 Apr;125(4):747-55.
            Measles outbreak in a highly vaccinated population, San Diego, 2008: role of the intentionally undervaccinated.

            Pediatrics. 2009 Jun;123(6):1446-51.
            Parental refusal of pertussis vaccination is associated with an increased risk of pertussis infection in children.

            Am J Epidemiol. 2008 Dec 15;168(12):1389-96. Epub 2008 Oct 15.
            Geographic clustering of nonmedical exemptions to school immunization requirements and associations with geographic clustering of pertussis.

            N Engl J Med. 2006 Aug 3;355(5):447-55.
            Implications of a 2005 measles outbreak in Indiana for sustained elimination of measles in the United States.

            JAMA. 2000 Dec 27;284(24):3145-50.
            Individual and community risks of measles and pertussis associated with personal exemptions to immunization.

          • Chris

            Wow, I did go on a bit to reply to this bit of idiocy (well, it did involve basic math):

            “3) the most obvious reason why people who don’t have immunity aren’t
            getting sick in droves is because the illness is presently very, very

            TL/DR version: it is because responsible families vaccinate, which is fortunately most of the residents of the USA. The only reason the diseases are “rare” is because we prevent them through vaccination. Despite the efforts of the websites you seem to follow.

            Even if vaccines are not perfect, the more who maintain the community’s immunity with vaccination the less likely these rather nasty pathogens have a chance to circulate!

          • Cholera is rare – let’s rip up all the toilets!

          • Sonja Henie

            You are a misogynist. You don’t think much of women. It has been well known for many years that MMR is 95% effective. Please post a cite that the second dose doesn’t capture 95%of the remaining non-immune.

          • SlammoFandango

            Okay, now you’re just talking out the side of your butt, Toots.

            Unless there have been large scale, real world experiments held, whereby vaccinated subjects and unvaccinated subjects alike were both placed together among actively contagious patients, there is no way anybody could make the statement you just made…

            And the same experiments would also need to be repeated time and again, all the while an average of 90% of the unvaccinated participants would need to come down with the illness after being exposed in order to recreate the real world statistically normal 90% rate of infection as it was previously established by logging hundreds of thousands of anecdotal accounts and ONLY THEN and from that metric, could the efficacy of any particular vaccine lot be judged as 95% effective…or to place any kind of known rate of efficacy on it as based on comparison…That’s never actually been done.

            We don’t have that kind of data, from any significantly large controlled experimentation, performed in the real world in which to examine.

            Instead we have nothing but rare anecdotal accounts with holes in much of the data such as, accurate accounts of all of the vaccine records for all of the people who came down with measles at Disneyland last year….in that one isolated account, it appears as though the vaccine’s performance was abysmal….

          • AutismDadd

            Toots will react by snorting like a pig and saying gish gallop

          • SlammoFandango

            I know…as if a career of stabbing kids in the arm with mixtures of what she in no way knew the formulation for, somehow makes her an expert. It’s like a truck stop waitress insisting we accept her for an executive chef at a four star restaurant…

          • Chris

            So have you figured out how to read the table in the link I gave you of NVICP statistics, how to divide the total number of vaccines given by the total number of compensated claims, and explain what the result means?

            I asked you days ago! Have you not figured out how to use a calculator on your phone, laptop, tablet or PC (or even the computer station at your local library)?

            Also, where are those PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present MMR vaccine used in the United States of America causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella?

            Did you ever figure out what “Nirvana Fallacy” means?

          • AutismDadd

            Bang on. She’s a loon

          • sabelmouse

            don’t put down waitresses. they work hard and don’t pretend.

          • SlammoFandango

            You are correct: most don’t pretend. I didn’t mean to offend you. It’s just that Sonja is special…

          • sabelmouse

            sonja is no waitress though. waitresses do an honest day’s work and don’t [mostly] work for death merchants.

          • Sonja Henie

            Actually, Jagoff, there are these things called “titers” that can measure antibody levels.

            You think the vaccine’s performance was abysmal at Disney? There were what, 159 cases. My computer’s running slow tonight and won’t connect to Google, but I believe it’s about 100,000 daily. If this person was there two days while contagious. s/he could have exposed 200,000 people, and you think 159 cases is a bad thing?

          • Chris

            He obviously did not understand the fairly long math heavy comment I posted last night:

            I actually mentioned the Disney outbreak (I am adding some bold):

            Though if someone with measles attends a large event like a concert, football game or Disneyland, that 1% could mean that there are a hundred vulnerable people per every ten thousand (10000 x .01 = 100, so lots). This does not even take into account children who are too young to be vaccinated with the MMR vaccine.

            So for the eighty to hundred thousand daily visitors to Disneyland there were about a thousand (.01 x 10000 = 1000) vulnerable persons per day (not including any child under age one who is too young to be vaccinated, yes… people bring their babies!). So the low number was true proof the vaccine works better than the estimates.

          • Sonja Henie

            Too true. I remember that post.

          • Chris

            Thanks. I was amazed that he/she had both a long and short form version of the Nirvana Fallacy!

          • SlammoFandango

            Your arithmetic is ludicrous. And nobody (except you) has been led to assume ‘he/she’ was at all moving about the park as you imply. Rather, all impications are constant with the virus coming to the park hosted by an employee who was working in a set location and at only one area of the park. It also is that a disproportionate number of employees were affected which further supports that theory.

            That attempt at spin was pretty lame, even for you.

          • Sonja Henie

            No one knows who “Patient Zero” was. There is no evidence, except in your wildest dreams, that it was an employee. The virus was of a type seen in the Philippines.

          • Sonja Henie

            Not really, what research, or rather the epidemic of 1989-91 showed was that a second dose was necessary to capture that 5% whose initial vaccine didn’t take. The more herd immunity, the better.

          • Chris

            Thanks. That epidemic did produce a few papers, and prompt Better Bumpers and Roselyn Carter to create this organization:

          • Sonja Henie

            Well of course they can. All they have to do is get a titer!

          • Chris

            So the three attenuated viruses used in the MMR vaccine are worse than getting secondary bacterial infections due to measles or chicken pox, really? Prove it. Some research points:

            Anecdote: when chicken pox made its way the school a year before the varicella vaccine was available one child was hospitalized with a real threat of losing a limb to a secondary bacterial infection. You whining about the MMR that has been used since 1971 is not supported by actual evidence.

          • We get this question a lot. It is answered on the website:

            “Who are you guys? Why don’t you say who you are? How can we trust you if we don’t know who you are?

            Because it really doesn’t matter, unless you are in the habit of judging ideas by where they come from, instead of by the scientific evidence.

            Vaccine advocates are addicted to the lazy, intellectually vapid practice of “argument by authority”. For them, all that’s required to resolve the issue of vaccine dangers is to assert the CDC, WHO, and AAP as “authorities” and parrot what they say. It’s so easy! No need to look at the science, or think for yourself, according to vaccine advocates. This is absolutely foolish.

            Scientific ideas and opinions must be judged by the evidence, not according to whether the source is perceived as an “authority”. All that really matters is the science and the evidence. To determine if VP is trustworthy, all you have to do is consider the opinions on these pages in view of what the science says. Then do the same for the CDC, WHO, AAP and other so-called “authorities”.

            Two of the most accomplished scientists of the 20th century agree with this approach:

            “Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts.” –Richard Feynman

            “Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth.”–Albert Einstein

            Additionally, we remain anonymous to avoid nasty “ad hominem” personal attacks and internet harassment. Unfortunately, such tactics are commonplace in the vaccine debate. There are considerable personal and professional risks in being associated with vaccine criticism. By remaining anonymous, attention is focused on where it belongs: the science. Our goal is to encourage people to look at the scientific evidence for themselves, and remaining anonymous furthers that goal.”

          • Chris

            First link: in mice, which we still have not figured out how to determine if they are autistic, plus it just proved infection during pregnancy is bad… we knew that already, ever heard of Congenital Rubella Syndrome

            Second link: another pregnant mouse study… again, see CRS and also mice aren’t human (they were not affected by thalidomide, )

            Third link: also about things happening in pregnancy… you do know that vaccines are given to babies and children, not fetuses… right?

            Fourth link: in baby mice, and really not a vaccine. Remember: mice lie and monkeys exaggerate (that is an actual saying, it has been amended with “ferrets are not people”, see This Week in Virology, TWIV #55).

            Fifth link: Oh, wow! It is by Shaw and Tomljenovic, they are not considered reputable researchers, since they were bought and paid for by the Dwoskin Family Foundation:

            Yep, that is some fine cherry picking with random sciencey sounding stuff without actual substance, and silly since it comes from the person who claimed MMR studies have selection bias when some contain a country’s entire population of children in their medical registry… and yet Wakefield gets away with specifically lawyer selected group of twelve kids.

          • This is the problem with reading just one paper. Many other papers in this field also show:

            1) Immune activation in the mother causes immune activation in the fetal brain.
            2) Its the immune activation (cytokines) in the developing brain that cause the brain damage. In other words, the brain is damaged by exposure to cytokines.
            3) Cytokines can damage the developing brain after birth, with no involvement of the mother.
            4) The human brain develops for years after birth, and can be damaged by cytokines during this period. And up to age 10 years, at least.
            5) Vaccines induce the same cytokines (IL-6 and IL-17a) in the brain that cause brain damage in the immune activation experiments.
            6) The experiments have been repeated with monkeys (looking at both behavioral and physiological outcomes).
            7) Much more than behavior has been measured. Immune activation causes physiological damage identical to autism. That would be Purkinje cell damage, microbiome disruption, mitochondrial damage, excitotoxicity and chronic brain inflammation.

            The harpocrates article refers to a different paper (a paper thats not retracted or contradicted by other epi studies of aluminum adjuvant).

            If you demand that all science funded by vaccine critics be ignored, then you must also ignore all science funded by vaccine promoters and pharma. Thats not reasonable.

            The funding source per se is not a reasonable basis for rejecting scientific findings.

          • Chris

            Seriously, you are still cherry picking. Vaccines are not given to fetuses, but they are affected by maternal infections. Vaccines are not maternal infections. Plus, the funding source is important especially since the linked source showed the bought and paid for “science” was nonsense.

            “6) The experiments have been repeated with monkeys (looking at both behavioral and physiological outcomes).”

            Yet you totally rejected to most recent SafeMinds study on non-human primates for “reasons” (just re-read the comments on this page). Now is that ironic or just hypocrisy? Obviously epidemiological studies on hundreds of thousands of children mean nothing to you.

            “Have to make a rational case that the methods are flawed.”

            The text in a different color was a link to another site, which had a link to an analysis to the silly bought and paid for “study.” Do try to follow up on the references.

            You are demonstrating more and more that there is no reason to not go to your website of copious cherry picked sciencey verbiage of nonsense.

          • The Safeminds study was inadequately powered to observe anything. Results are meaningless. 15 subjects per group is not nearly enough to observe a 1-2% effect (the strength of the vaccine-autism effect).

            Also, vaccines damage the brain mainly in cases of adverse reactions. Normal vaccine response does not induce brain cytokine production and so does not damage the brain. But in cases of encephalitis or seizures for example, the brain is damaged.

            You demonstrate your ignorance of this field with such comments. Its the cytokines that cause the brain damage, and maternal involvement is completely unnecessary for cytokine expression in the developing brain. Microglia and astrocytes in the developing brain are quite capable of producing the damaging cytokines (IL-6 and IL-17a).

            Also, there are now several studies showing that POSTNATAL cytokine exposure damages the brain. This this one:

            Neonatal vaccination with bacillus Calmette-Guérin and hepatitis B vaccines modulates hippocampal synaptic plasticity in rats.

            And this is another:
            Impaired synaptic development in a maternal immune activation mouse model of neurodevelopmental disorders.

            The first study demonstrates that vaccines cause immune activation in the brain. It shows that the Hep B vaccines stimulates chronic elevated IL-6 in the brain and Th2 bias, resulting in impaired brain development.

            If I am cherrypicking, then show me some papers with contrary results.

            Epi studies on vaccines and autism look at only ONE vaccine: MMR. You cannot use these studies to make claims about OTHER vaccines, or vaccines that contain aluminum. MMR does not contain aluminum.

            Also, there are flaws with the MMR-autism studies. They all suffer from a type of systematic selection bias: healthy used bias. This source of bias is well known and proven to be quite large in vaccine epi studies.

          • Chris

            First link: study in rats from China

            Second link: study in baby mice (another infection during pregnancy is bad study, ever heard of CRS? or thalidomide?)

            “If I am cherrypicking, then show me some papers with contrary results.”

            Seriously? Sweetie, what are your qualifications because you are totally striking out on all counts. Seriously, what was the last biological science class you have attended and your most recent statistical math class? Your “favored” studies seem to be in rodents… do you even understand that rodents and primates are different?

            Here you go. I expect a detailed well referenced explanation of why they are inadequate by someone who is qualified (clarification: not you):

            Vaccines are not associated with autism: An evidence-based meta-analysis of case-control and cohort studies (a pdf of the uncorrected proof)

            Vaccination Status and Health in Children and Adolescents

            Vaccine. 2012 Jun 13;30(28):4292-8. Epub 2012 Apr 20.
            The combined measles, mumps, and rubella vaccines and the total number of vaccines are not associated with development of autism spectrum disorder: The first case-control study in Asia.

            Pediatr Infect Dis J. 2010 May;29(5):397-400.
            Lack of association between measles-mumps-rubella vaccination and autism in children: a case-control study.

            PLoS ONE 2008; 3(9): e3140 doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0003140
            Lack of Association between Measles Virus Vaccine and Autism with Enteropathy: A Case-Control Study.

            J Autism Dev Disord 2007; 37(2):210-7
            MMR-Vaccine and Regression in Autism Spectrum Disorders: Negative Results Presented from Japan.

            J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;46(6):572-9.
            No effect of MMR withdrawal on the incidence of autism: a total population study.

            Pediatrics 2002; 110:957-63
            Neurologic Disorders after Measles-Mumps-Rubella Vaccination.

            N Engl J Med 2002; 347(19):1477-82
            A Population-Based Study of Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Autism.

            BMJ 2002; 324(7334):393-6
            Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccination and Bowel Problems or Developmental Regression in Children with Autism: Population Study.

            Pediatrics 2001;108(4):E58
            No Evidence for a New Variant of Measles-Mumps-Rubella-Induced Autism.

            Lancet 1998; 351:1327-8
            No Evidence for Measles, Mumps, and Rubella Vaccine-Associated Inflammatory Bowel Disease or Autism in a 14-year Prospective Study.

          • All those studies relate to MMR. Cannot use those to argue that OTHER vaccines do not cause autism.

            The “KIGGS” study is inadequately powered and the groups are not matched.

            50 subjects ages 6-17 is not enough to observe differences. This is obvious from the data reported. The confidence intervals are very wide.

            Also, the vaccinated subjects are not fully vaccinated. They received at least ONE vaccine. How many received just one?

            Also, Germany uses far fewer vaccines than the US.

            This is a problem:

            Children and adolescents
            were defined as unvaccinated if at the time of the
            KiGGS survey no documentation existed for any vaccination
            against diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, Hae –
            mophilus influenzae type b, hepatitis B, poliomyelitis,
            measles, mumps, or rubella. By contrast, children who
            had by then received at least one vaccination according
            to their vaccination card were categorized as vaccinated.

            There are no good studies of vaxed vs unvaxed groups. So the vaccine schedule recommended in the US is untested and experimental. Never been tested for safety.

          • Chris

            You missed this bit: “I expect a detailed well referenced explanation of why they are inadequate by someone who is qualified (clarification: not you):”

            What part of “referenced” and “not you” did you fail to understand? Oh, and loved the unethical request for the “studies of fully-vaxed vs completely-unvaxed groups.” This definitely proves you really hate children and would rather they suffer from dangerous diseases.

            “All but one of those studies relate to MMR.”

            You also missed that I was specifically asking for PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers on the present American MMR vaccine. One vaccine in one country that has been used for at least a generation.

            Okay, I will ask this question for the fourth time: please provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present American MMR approved for use in 1978 causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.

          • Chris

            Cut and pasted a comment you have not replied to, please try to answer it:
            Then prove the present American MMR vaccine is more dangerous than
            wild measles, mumps and rubella infections. Produce some actual
            verifiable data instead of a unsupported statement.

            Just post the PMIDs, not a link to your cherry picking website.

            Now I need to add: make sure the researchers are both qualified and reputable. To be reputable they should not have been legally stripped of their medical credentials like Wakefield or either Geier (one who never went to medical school!), and never attended a conference in Jamaica sponsored by the Dwoskins. To be qualified means they have the requisite education and work experience, so no lawyers, journalists, computer scientists, geologists or financial specialists (though Gayle DeLong’s contention that any child getting school based speech/language services autistic was terribly idiotic and amusing… especially since we knew kids in the hearing impaired programs).

          • If you demand that all science funded by vaccine critics be ignored, then you must also ignore all science funded by vaccine promoters and pharma. Thats not reasonable. Same standards of evidence must be fairly applied to both sides of the debate.

            The funding source per se is not a reasonable basis for rejecting scientific findings. Have to make a rational case that the methods are flawed.

          • Mike Stevens

            Rejecting studies published by scientific frauds like Wakefield is not at all “unreasonable”.

            However, I am pleased to see you accept that the source of funding for a research study is per se not a reason to reject its findings, and the study should stand on its own scientific merits. Would that all you antivax types thought that.

          • We do not cite any papers by Wakefield.

          • Mike Stevens

            And your reasons being….?

          • Dont need to. His theories are not directly relevant to aluminum toxicity. His findings are not necessary for arguments related to immune activation.

            We wish to avoid tedious arguments about the Wakefield episode. Even though we dont rely on Wakefield, its a favorite topic of vaccine promoters. For most vaccine promoters its the only thing they know.

          • Mike Stevens

            I see. So your website deals only with aluminium adjuvants and their supposed toxicity?

          • VP website is focused on aluminum, immune activation and defects in epidemiological studies of vaccines and autism.

            Al adjuvants are very toxic, at dosages received from vaccines.

          • Mike Stevens

            You have failed to provide any evidence for your claims on vaccines in pregnancy causing schizophrenia and autism in offspring, so why would anyone think you would suddenly provide any decent evidence to support your other notions?

          • Mike Stevens

            It is quite clear that natural influenza infection in pregnancy is a risk for autism and schizophrenia.

            We should all be encouraging vaccination, in order to prevent this menace to society.

            Thank you for supporting vaccination against influenza!

          • Dr patterson wrote this in 2006:

            “Finally, I want to ask a question that’s come up in the literature in the last few years—should we really be promoting universal maternal vaccination? The flu vaccine has been recommended routinely to pregnant women in the United States since 1957. The official policy of the Centers for Disease Control states that “administration of vaccines to women seeking prenatal care is an opportunity
            for preventative intervention that should not be wasted.” Now you might say, “Well, of course,
            you don’t want to get the flu if you’re pregnant!” But remember that double-stranded RNA experi- ment—we activated the immune system, and it caused all these downstream effects on the fetus. And what does a vaccination do? It activates the immune system. That’s the point of vaccination.
            In practice, not all pregnant women receive flu shots, and I think that universal vaccination of pregnant women could get us into a whole new
            set of problems.”

            Only about 3% of people get flu in any given year. Flu vaccine efficacy is about 30-50%. SO this will reduce it to 1.5% (a generous assumption for you).

            A 1.5% reduction in flu risk. Compare this to the 100% of vaccine recipients that are exposed to the vaccine. What is the risk of excessive immune activation in vaccine recipients? It must be far lower than 1.5% to be worth the risk.

            There is no evidence the risk is this small, and in fact the safety of the flu vaccine in pregnancy has not been tested for immune activation effects.

          • Mike Stevens

            Where is the evidence for your claims?

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            And? So what if people are exposed to the vaccine?

            You have failed to show that there is any risk attached – and also failed to show that you understand how vaccines work to protect us from disease.

          • Chris

            You are quoted a reprint of a New Yorker Magazine op-ed that did not have a list of references for those assertions. That is not a PubMed indexed journal.

          • No its not an op-ed and not from New Yorker. its from Caltech’s engineering magazine. Here is the link:


            Dr paul patterson is a leader in immune activation research, responsible for several early studies. Article is adapted from a seminar lecture. Here is a bio from the article:

            Paul Patterson, the Biaggini Professor of Biological
            Sciences at Caltech and a research professor of
            neurobiological surgery at the Keck School of Medicine
            at USC, got his BA in biology at Grinnell College
            in Iowa in 1965, and his PhD from Johns Hopkins
            in 1970. He was a professor of neurobiology at the
            Harvard Medical School before coming to Caltech in
            1983, following in the footsteps of his uncle, the late
            Professor of Geochemistry Clair Patterson.

          • Chris

            It had New Yorker cartoons in it! Also, it is still not a PubMed indexed journal, and even it it was it was an opinion piece and the bit you keep copying and pasting was not referenced.

          • Flu vaccine also causes immune suppression, leading to increased risk of non-influenza infection:


          • Mike Stevens

            Make up your mind.. Does flu vax cause immune activation or immune suppression?

            PS: even if it is associated with additional viral infections….Who cares?
            According to you infections don’t matter, and don’t have any impact on the immune system.

          • Both. The effect is biphasic. Causes acute immune activation, and chronic immune suppression.

            I never said that.

          • Chris

            That is the most ridiculous use of a sciency word I have ever seen.

            By the way, we are still not going to your website, so just post the PMIDs on this thread. I would love to see the PubMed indexed paper that uses “biphasic” to describe the effect of influenza vaccination.

          • Its common in medical sciences to describe distinct acute and chronic effects as “biphasic”. As in having two phases.


            Here is a paper showing greatly increased risk of infection after flu vaccine. And the vaccine was ineffective for flu.


            Should look at this one, too:


          • Chris

            The wiki page did not include anything to do with influenza, disease nor vaccine. Plus work on your reading comprehension because its definition was totally opposite of yours. From the wiki page you posted: “A biphasic disease is a disease which has two distinct phases.” Seriously, a disease going through two different presentations is different from “Causes acute immune activation, and chronic immune suppression.” Which are your words, which actually do not make any sense at all in real world context (hint: neither phase happens at the same time).

            By the way, measles does cause acute immune activation when a kid is sick with it… and then later suppresses the immune system for years. It is not considered “biphasic”, but a side effect of getting the virus. Plus it actually has been studied and documented:
            Science. 2015 May 8;348(6235):694-9.
            Long-term measles-induced immunomodulation increases overall childhood infectious disease mortality.

            Now to your other links:

            Finally! You have a human study, of just a bit over a hundred kids. Well, isn’t that underpowered! Plus it was self-reported and one common phrase in the study was “no statistically significant difference.”

            What were the “non-influenza” viruses, and how did they compare to other children?

            Plus the other one is way out of date, and it was in mice… influenza viruses mutate and mice who are still not people and tend to lie.

            And I love how you claim you site is all about the aluminum adjuvants, yet you seem to really freak out about influenza vaccines. Which in the USA do not have adjuvants. That is terribly hilarious. First you don’t seem to realize influenza and the recommended vaccines (based on guesses… so we do know the efficacy varies) change every year, and that the American versions have no aluminum adjuvants… nor any other kind of adjuvant.

            And then an editorial comment. You really are reaching, aren’t you?

          • “biphasic” is a general term and I used it correctly.

            Not underpowered. Results are very statistically significant. Read the paper to find out. This research group has another much larger study coming out with the same results-might be published by now.

            There is one article on flu vaccine.

            The website covers more than aluminum.

            yes I know that flu vaccine does not contain adjuvant. Which is one reason why its not a focus.

          • Chris

            Bha, ha, ha, ha, ha!

            This is from the guy who posts mice studies that show infections during pregnancy are bad (we knew that already) as evidence that vaccines are cause autism. You have continued to demonstrate that you have absolutely no understanding what the papers say, nor why we are laughing at you!

          • Studies with monkeys show the same results:


          • Chris

            You mean the same critters that showed thalidomide was safe in pregnancy? I posted that reference. Again your reading comprehension issues are failing you. Don’t you recall that we are not going to your silly site?

          • Epi evidence and case reports show immune activation causes the same damage in humans.

            Drug reactions and metabolism show much higher inter-species variability than fundamental processes like neuro-immune development.

          • Chris

            Yawn. More arguments by blatant assertions.

            In the past few years an average of a hundred American kids were killed by influenza:

            We know that one hundred families grieving over the death of a child does not come near your empathy threshold, but it provides a number of finality for you to achieve. What you need to produce is a PubMed index study by reputable qualified researchers on children that any influenza vaccine used on American children has caused as much harm as the disease. Really, do show how any of the several influenza vaccines used on kids causes as much death.

            (since you seem to have reading issues, do not include vaccines used in other countries… while some of the deceased American children may have had Scandinavian ancestors, they were not citizens of Sweden or Finland).

          • There is not much evidence that flu vaccine will prevent this. Flu vaccine trials are not placebo controlled, and hence the observed benefit is the result of healthy user bias.


          • Chris

            “… for older patients receiving influenza vaccination…”

            Do I need to define the word “pediatric” to you? Seriously? Big hint: they are not old enough to vote. Oh, wait… you probably don’t know there are minimum age requirements to vote. So just think of people who are eighteen years old and younger.

            Then it says: “(AB, Canada).” Oh, good grief. Are you also deficit in geography! Newsflash: Alberta is not an American state, believe it or not, but Canada is actually not part of the United States of America.

            While they are in North America, I used the term “American” (I even used bold font!). If I wanted to include Canada and Mexico (and sometimes I do) I would use the phrase “North American.”

          • It might actually be interesting to converse with you if you weren’t so rude.

            I suppose you feel its acceptable to be rude because you are so convinced you are right. Im convinced Im right too, but I dont act like that.

          • Chris

            “It might actually be interesting to converse with you if you weren’t so rude.”

            Aw, you poor baby! Did I hurt your feelings because I asked you questions and you totally failed to even deliver with anything relevant? If you think I am bad then you should get off the internet or grow a back bone… or at a minimum go to your local community college to work on your reading comprehension.

            How is it if I am convinced I am right that I am asking you specific questions? You are making the claims that vaccines are harmful, yet you refuse to answer my very specific questions about that harm.

            Here is the basis: you cannot show an ingredient used in vaccines causes harm until you first show the vaccines actually cause harm in relation to the harm caused by the diseases. This is why I specifically asked you to provide the PubMed studies by reputable qualified researchers that show the present American (one used in the United Stated of America) MMR causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.

            You then (rudely) ignored that and went off on influenza vaccines. So, again, I pointed out that influenza (the disease) has killed an average of a hundred American (again, residents of the United States of America) children per year on average for the last few years. So I asked you to provide the verifiable evidence that any pediatric influenza vaccine used in the United States of America caused as much harm.

            You very rudely posted an abstract on a study done in Canada on older adults. Seriously?

            If you want to convince me you are correct: answer the questions I actually ask!

            What is hilarious is that I am called rude just after seeing some very juvenile obscene comments posted to/about me and others by a sock puppet troll on both JustTheVax and LeftBrainRightBrain. Fortunately I have have a spine, and the idiocy just rolls off. I did not grow that spine when I was dealing with the Mercury Moms over a decade ago on the listserv I was on for my son’s disability after I posted that chelation is a bad idea (I left that listserv, and two weeks later a kid was executed by chelation under doctor’s orders). No, I grew that spine by dealing the idiocy of fellow engineering students during the late 1970s.

            It has served me well as a mother of a child with multiple medical issues, because you cannot believe the total bovine excrement parents of disabled kids are bombarded with from the first hospital stay as a newborn to trying to secure supported housing.

            So just grow a spine and learn to actually read. For starters you can have someone explain to you the paragraph above this one.

          • Chris

            Plus I did not ask about efficacy! I asked about about safety, as in harm! Influenza kills, and recently it has been killing kids. How do we prevent that? Just ignore it?

            Really, please find someone who passed a college entrance exam to help you read this stuff.

          • Mike Stevens

            “Flu vaccine trials are not placebo controlled”

            Sorry, didn’t you just refer us to a placebo-controlled study of flu vaccine?

            How is your memory doing these days? Will you blame aluminium?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Flu vaccine trials are not placebo controlled


            Study 4 included 1,357 subjects for safety analysis, ages 18 through 64 years, randomized to receive AFLURIA (1,089 subjects) or placebo (268 subjects)

            Study 5 included 15,020 subjects for safety analysis, ages 18 through 64 years, randomized to 214 receive AFLURIA (10,015 subjects) or placebo (5,005 subjects)

            One of the 4 clinical trials was a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial that evaluated a total of 952 subjects: FLUARIX (N = 760) and placebo (N = 192)

            A double-blind, placebo-controlled trial in subjects aged 18 through 64 years randomized (2:1) to receive FLUARIX (N = 5,103) or placebo (N = 2,549)

            Study 1 included 4648 subjects 18 through 49 years of age for safety analysis, randomized to receive Flublok (n=2344) or placebo (n=2304)

            study 1 was a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study that evaluated three vaccines including: FLUCELVAX (N=3813), placebo (N=3894)

          • Yes typically they are not randomized and placebo controlled. The placebos are often not true placebos, but rather other vaccines that also produce adverse effects. So such studies cannot be rationally used as evidence for safety. But that doesnt stop vaccine promoters from citing them as evidence of safety anyway.

            The few that are randomized and placebo controlled are conducted by the companies selling the vaccine. So they ignore adverse events and spin the data to make their product look safe and effective.

            Those are not proper citations. Cite the papers if you want to make the argument.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Yes typically they are not randomized and placebo controlled.

            Which is incorrect as demonstrated and you would know this if you spent even the tiniest amount of time checking your facts.

            The placebos are often not true placebos, but rather other vaccines that also produce adverse effects.

            None of the studies I referenced were comparisons against vaccines and in general a vaccine-to-vaccine comparison would not be called a placebo – a control yes – a placebo no. So your assertion is, again incorrect.Those are not proper citations. Cite the papers if you want to make the argument.It’s all from the inserts and if you had spent any time looking at all you would know you are full of crap. If you can’t expend the 10 minutes I did checking your facts then I think that rather flushes the idea that your site is really paying much attention to the science.

          • Chris

            Since your reading level is at about the level of an average sixth grader, let John Oliver explain it to you. Pay attention on the rodent bit starting at around the eight minute mark:

          • Mike Stevens

            The monkeys are laughing at you too!

          • Mike Stevens

            But your paper doesn’t indicate chronic immune suppression from flu vaccine, so your inference is flawed.

          • Mike Stevens

            No, flu vaccine does not cause “chronic immune suppression”.
            That is your claim, and is not what the paper you cite indicates.
            You haven’t understood it, have you?

          • Mike Stevens

            Good studies! – they show how vital it is for women and kids to avoid infections which are potent triggers for immune activation.
            Well done for helping provide evidence supporting vaccination!

          • Thats a naive opinion contradicted by known mechanism responsible for the damage: immune activation. Vaccines activate the immune system of an infant, and this can damage the developing brain. The intensity of immune activation from a vaccine is impossible to predict.

            The danger to the brain is likely greatest with aluminum-containing vaccines. Aluminum causes intense brain inflammation. And yes the aluminum in vaccines is transported into the brain. Thats another recent finding.

          • Mike Stevens

            You have described the possible pathogenesis of neurological damage consequent to immune activation during pregnancy. You have used animal studies, yet have cited no human studies to suggest vaccination can do this, so this is mere speculation.

            On the other hand, there is excellent evidence that natural influenza in HUMAN pregnancy causes autism and schizophrenia. In addition, there is evidence that other viruses do this too (Measles, rubella, chickenpox, polio)

            You are the one trying , without evidence, to blame vaccines, when it is clear natural infection is demonstrably riskier. Now you raise the red herring of adjuvants, when we know that natural infection and studies using viral RNA or bacterial endotoxin cause this (no aluminium needed!)

            Vaccination of adult women to ensure they are up to date with boosters, or vaccination in pregnancy against flu will reduce the risks to the fetus of schizophrenia and autism.

            That is the only rational conclusion anyone can draw from the evidence base that you have presented (and the evidence base you have not presented).

          • SlammoFandango

            Exactly what the hell do you think an antigen even is if not an infection?

            You claim to understand the importance of women and children avoiding infections and other triggers of the immune system in preventing the onset of autism…yet advocate for the systemic release of various antigens which are themselves, as we know, designed to trigger the immune system? ? ?

          • Mike Stevens

            I think you are unclear on how the human immune system responds to infections, and what those infections entail in terms of antigenic challenge.
            For example, an E. coli bacterium contains hundreds of antigens – capsular proteins, polysaccharides etc, which all provoke a response and result in some immune activation. Urinary tract infections are fairly prevalent in pregnancy, so pregnant women generate immune activation frequently to these organisms.

            Similarly Bordetella pertussis bacteria – hundreds of reactive antigens.
            The TDaP vaccine only contains between 3-5 pertussis antigens, in the form of toxoids, which elicit a very specific immune response limited to those specific immunogens. In the grand scheme of things the antigenic challenge is minimal, compared to what the natural pertussis exposure would do.

            Trading off a major immune acivation event for a very limited and specific event would be an advantage, and result in far less of this supposedly horrendous “immune activation” that causes autism and schizophrenia in the woman’s offspring. That’s all I am pointing out.

            It’s far better to vaccinate, and Vaccine Paper’s “evidence” supports that strategy.

          • Sonja Henie

            Damn straight we’re not going to his/her website! I wouldn’t give him/her the satisfaction of adding to the click count.

          • Mike Stevens

            Stop pimping your own antivaccine propaganda website.
            You wish to try and discuss the science of vaccination, do so here.

          • Sonja Henie

            Flagged for pimping own website. You’ve been there, done that before. Remember how it ended?

          • Chris

            I kind of remember VP trying to flog it at Respectful Insolence, so I assume he/she did not fare well in multiple places. Considering the performance here, I doubt that site has improved.

          • AutismDadd

            While Sonya pimps for skepticalraptor

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Who is Sonya?

          • SlammoFandango

            Ahhahaha….skepticalraptor….no doubt the biggest wing nut on the web…..ishouldaknown…

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            No aluminum was found in brain or kidney tissue following autopsy of these vaccinated rodents.
            The authors were moving mountains to try and find something but about all they found was that the sc injection sites had some aluminum detectable.

        • Ray Fischer

          Prove that you’re not an insane fanatic

    • Nali Mikely

      So lets say it does cause autism…is your child getting sick and possibly dying worse than autism? I say this as an autistic/bipolar adult who graduated bachelors in a stem field with honors, with a 1.5 year-long relationship partner, currently with an above minimum wage job, and asking if my life is really such a terrible curse compared to your kid possibly dying from disease?

    • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

      No one is saying there is no risk with vaccination whatsoever. However, they do not cause autism or schizophrenia or allergies or autoimmune disorders. The science has been very clear on this. Moreover, autism is not brain damage, it is a genetic condition that people are born with.

      You don’t seem to understand what “scientifically proven” actually means, and the misinformation you are spreading is dangerous.

      • SlammoFandango

        Actually, the blanket statement, “Vaccines are safe and effective” is commonplace. That statement strongly suggests ‘that there is no risk with vaccination whatsoever’. And it’s been my experience when questioning risk vs reward or inherent danger from a medical intervention vs promises of lasting health, brings about ALL KINDS OF HOSTILE CRITICISM….so let’s be honest; if one questions convention, there WILL be consequences from the pro-vax camp.

        And let’s be further honest, simply questioning if even ONE of the various vaccine products is worthwhile for an individual on an individual case by case basis, brings criticism. Please don’t say, “nobody is saying…”, because that simply isn’t true.

        While you may be in the right to say that no proof exists linking vaccines to autism, autoimmune issues, allergies, etc., all Science itself can really say is, ‘as yet there has been no conclusive evidence linking many of these suspect disorders with vaccines’.

        That said, you can not just jump out and try to make the declaration that Science has PROVEN that there is no connection. That isn’t seemless logic.

        Just because somebody’s attempt to prove something, ‘failed’ does not automatically mean no one else ever will. It would be on par with saying every failure to lift a heavier-than-air flying machine into the sky prior to 1903 was proof that the Wright brothers would never do it.

        So, no matter what your attitude is or your opinion that nobody will ever show proof of a connection between vaccines and something like neurological disorders, you lack proof of there being proof of these connections ‘actually being disproven’ Scientifically.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          Millions upon millions of people around the world have been vaccinated, and study after study has failed to find any link between vaccines and neurological disorders.

          Meantime, the link between the diseases and neurological disorders is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt.

          At this stage, it is perverse to suggest that we should avoid vaccinating to avoid a minuscule, not even theoretical, risk when the consequences of not vaccinating are so dire.

          On the contrary to your example, being anti-vaccination is like being anti-sea travel, on the grounds that although all observations of boats have so far shown that they don’t suddenly fly to the moon on a whim, there is no proof -and can be no proof – that they never will, even though there is no plausible mechanism that would allow them to do so and we have well-studied vehicles that do fly into space.

          ‘Safe’ is used about all sorts of things in life, and no-one ever claims that it means ‘100% without any possibility of harm’. People could choke on food, and no-one would label that as ‘dangerous’ and ‘to be avoided at all costs’, because the consequence of not eating is very dangerous indeed.

          • SlammoFandango

            I’m not goose-stepping on either side of the aisle. But I don’t like it when EITHER camp implies something that isn’t true. Now in your case, you’re being disingenuous when you boast ‘vaccines do not cause neurological damage’…because as a blanket statement, it isn’t 100% true.

            For instance, themerosol most certainly is a neurotoxin and themerosol was removed from many vaccine products when awareness of its neurotoxcity was more widely recognized and considered. While it is themerosol hasn’t been established in proof as being itself alone, a trigger for autism etc., it is technically a neurotoxin and without question remains a negative consideration for the few vaccine products that still contain it presently. The danger to an otherwise healthy patient’s long term cognitive function due to themerosol exposure may very well be nominal in most all cases but for people to dismiss that danger out of hand as you seemingly are doing is, IMHO, disingenuous.

            Now, you also claim that the risk from not vaccinating is ‘dire’. I myself don’t interpret our present situation in the US as ‘dire’ although I understand that both of our opinions are always going to be subjective.

            While I agree it would be ideal if nobody ever again contracted a VPD ever again, I don’t see present rates if infection from VPDs as ‘dire’. Because, by my standards, if we had otherwise healthy school kids dying from pertussis, in ANY numbers, then THAT would be dire. If annual rates of measles infection reached a level high enough that measles’ 0.3% rate of morbidity was actually showing us deaths from year to year, then yes that would be ‘dire’. But we just aren’t at a point whereby things have gotten dire; it isn’t dire at all….the publicity over people getting sick from VPDs is certainly quite spectacular but the prognosis’ of those illnesses hasn’t been ‘dire’ at all.

            There is simply no scientific evidence showing that mandating vaccinations upon our free society displays any more efficacy than programs allowing for voluntary ones and that is due to the simple fact that no experiment involving forced vaccination across our country has ever actually been conducted. However we most certainly reached the pinicle example of success in the year 2000 when experimentation with voluntary vaccination programs succeeded in eliminating all cases of measles from the US for some years.

            Since voluntary programs reached the pinicle, it is absurd to claim mandating vaccines is the only way to achieve the same pinicle especially considering the same success of voluntary programs has never actually been recreated by using coercion.

            Instead, should our society’s situation actually become dire (not just hysterically hyped in the media) and people actually start dying for real and in any numbers, we can be quite certain that no coercing will be needed in getting folks to risk taking the shots.

            But whether you want to accept this present truth or not, of all the potential dangers as they stand, the negatives most commonly encountered either way are encountered not by those people who choose to do nothing but instead those who chose the interventions.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            1. The USA isn’t the only country on Earth.

            2. There were no effects from thiomersal, but it was removed as an exercise in reassurance because some people were blaming it for autism (which, incidentally, made vaccines considerably more expensive since they could no longer be supplied in multi-dose vials, much to the annoyance of poorer countries).

            3. Healthy children are dying from pertussis.

            Perhaps the consequences, at the moment, of one person not vaccinating their children appear not to be dire because so many are vaccinated that it is possible to hide in the herd. But if not even everyone, just a quarter of parents, were to follow that selfish example, then there would no longer be a herd to hide in. The infection would find plenty of hosts to breed in.

            4. Mandating vaccination in order to join in certain social benefits is a perfectly reasonable social contract. It is not the same as making them compulsory. People can simply not take benefits from society if they are not prepared do their share.

          • SlammoFandango

            1)The lone 3 states within the US which have recently passed laws withholding public benifits from those who do not vaccinate, are similar in policy to only but a small minority of the world’s countries.

            2)Thermerosol is a known neurotoxin and as such it is not a matter of any reasonableo debate as to whether or not it has an EFFECT on the nervous system. It might very well be said that in reasonable dosage Thermerosol has not been proven to always AFFECT the nervous system but I refuse to accept the blanket assurance that it has never effected a patient’s nervous system.

            3) While some children within our most vaccinated demographic of 5 to 17 year-olds, do sometimes contract pertussis, a death from pertussis by a 5 to 17 year-old is virtually unheard of. Rather, deaths from pertussis usually occur among the very old or the very, very young. You can claim children are dying of pertussis (and sadly, it does happen frequently with infants) but to focus on the most vaccinated demographic within our society of 5 to 17 year-olds is simply ludicrous yet this is exactly what the provax crowd does. Rather than admitting to the real problem which involves admitting to the vaccine’s limitations, they pace blame where it isn’t deserved and on school kids. Instead the lion’s share of walking pertussis cases are among working age adults who have no clue they are contagious for pertussis and assume that they can not be because they were vaccinated. THOSE ADULTS, as moms and dads are the infected people doing most of the infecting of infants and old people.

            4) You believe this point to be true and I respect your right to hold it as opinion, however it is subjective and only true within a society that chooses to make such an outlook it’s own reality. As yet, your viewpoint doesn’t actually correspond with our laws quite as much as you maybe think.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            “Our laws”?

            Whose laws?

          • SlammoFandango

            What, are you vaccine damaged? You don’t know whose laws we’re talking about?….

            The USA of course and California, specifically….

            Ever hear of “Malibu Barbie?

            Barbie’s from California, dude.

            Mattel company headquarters are in Southern California

            The dateline on this article reads, Los Angeles…

            Try to keep up…

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Oh, you really are special, aren’t you? Mattel may have its headquarters there, but Barbie dolls are manufactured in China, Indonesia and Malaysia, and shipped all over the world.

            The article is satire, which means that the dolls in the OP don’t exist.

            only true within a society that chooses to make such an outlook it’s own reality” happens to apply to many societies all over the world, not just in the USA.

            I don’t live in the USA.

          • SlammoFandango

            You’ve just shared nothing we all didn’t already know. The sharing of what is actually pertinent information, such as exactly which juristiction you live under, isn’t something you seem capable of doing as you clog up the page.

          • Sonja Henie

            1. The only “public benefit” that is being withheld from people in those three states who won’t vaccinate their children is attendance at public/private schools.

            2. ThimeroSAL has been studied and found safe in the minute quantities used in vaccines. It also makes the vaccines less expensive, because multi-dose vials can be used.

            3. Prove that death by pertussis in a 5-17 year old is virtually unheard of. Only a fool says “virtually unheard of” in health care.

            4. That viewpoint corresponds with the SCOTUS, 1905-2015.

          • SlammoFandango

            4) No government has been able to get away with forcing needles onto the arms of the children of free people against the protestations of free people. Period.

            3) More school aged children die in crosswalks in front of the schools they attend than die from pertussis; it’s that uncommon.

            2)Since it can’t be quickly eliminated from the body as it might if ingested, levels of systemically introduced Thermerosol often continue to increase after subsequent vaccinations. What might be considered ‘minute’ levels of Thermerosol after one or two injections can become several times the recommended levels; even when injections are spread out over several months. The fact that a vaccine has a higher shelf life and maybe costs less than a similar product not containing neurotoxin isn’t really a point of argument if you ask me…

            1)Personally…..and I understand you might see things differently….it’s far more dangerous to deny a kid an education and risk him turning to a life of violent crime than to risk any likelyhood of him contracting something like measles. Deaths associated with undereducated people are common yet by comparison, deaths from VPDs are rare.

          • Sonja Henie

            4. Jacobson vs Massachusetts, 1905-2015
            3. So what? We do all we can to prevent accidents in crosswalks. Shouldn’t we do the same for vaccine PREVENTABLE diseases?
            2. Just WHAT is your expertise in this area. Since you have dissed mine, I’d like to know, Jagoff!
            1. No one is “denying a kid an education”. What’s being denied is entry to a school. The parents can home school, online school, or whatever option they choose that doesn’t involve their child darkening the door of a school building to go to school. If they’re so much smarter than all the health/science experts in the WORLD, it should be no problem for them to work something out.

          • SlammoFandango

            Morons like you just want to be punitive toward people who aren’t like you even if those other folks aren’t hurting you.

            But there’s nothing to keep these ‘home schooled’ kids from going to the same grocery store you do, or hair salon, department store, museums, libraries, sporting events, concerts, plays, athletic clubs, public swimming pools, the DMV, courthouses, ice skating rinks, restaurants, hospitals, etc.

            People who think this law is a good law and makes sense are no different that the worst of all religious hypocrites….

            You’ll probably be dead soon but the next generation is going to look back on people who supported laws like SB277 as backward, cowardly, and stupid.

          • Sonja Henie

            I’d block you, but then I’d lose my chance to flag these posts and hopefully get rid of you for good.

            Where are you posting from Slammo? This post came in at 2 AM MDT. I’m very suspicious that you are a sock puppet for that a-hole VacunousAustismo. He even called me “sister” once, and I told him the same I told you. But it’s all the same, the writing style, the misogyny, the stupidity.

          • SlammoFandango

            Hmmm…never heard of VacunousAustismo from Netherlands…but I imagine he/she, like most Dutch, is sensitive to goose-steppers like you who want to censor dissenters.

            Listen, Nurse Ratchet, I’d no less take exception to your opinions if you had a penis just as well. I didn’t place the chip on your shoulder you have for being a woman….That was someone else and a long time ago.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            If you are so knowledgeable, why do you persistently mis-spell the preservative that used to be in vaccines many years ago? Or are you claiming that there is a new additive called ‘Thermerosol’ which is dangerous (and mysteriously doesn’t appear on any ingredient list?).

            The actual preservative is called thiomersal (or thimerosal in the USA).

          • SlammoFandango

            Idunno…it seems to be some spellchecker glitch on my phone…I’m otherwise nowhere near that consistent with my actual typing….thanks for pointing that out, I’ll give it a go and correct the auto-correct. Thanks for the editing help. 🙂

          • David

            I have read many of your comments tonight. You seem like a relatively intelligent guy but you are simply selfish. You are correct that the risk to your unvaccinated children of catching vaccine preventable diseases is indeed close to zero. This is because of the success of the vaccines and that the level of vaccination in your community sounds as if it is very high. So therefore, you feel why should you take any risk even if it is infinitesimal Of course this will continue to work as long as most people are not selfish like you. However there are many privileged, educated people like yourself (you made the point that the poor uneducated are actually vaccinating at higher rates than ever), and as this selfishness propagates, the diseases will return with a vengeance. This is why I agree with the california law as it makes everyone responsible for the societal contract of vaccines, and not allow the privileged to be selfish like yourself.

          • SlammoFandango

            First of all, me pointing out that people who are wealthy, well educated, and privileged are thus so more apt to have taken the steps in filing for ‘personal beliefs’ vaccine exemptions more so often than their undereducated and underprivileged counterparts, does not necessarily mean that I’m bragging about being well educated and privileged….I think that is just one of the many unnecessary conclusions you have hastily jumped to, which have only come to you on a hunch, and without any evidence to back up the assertions you’ve then made…

            But of the MANY baseless assertions being made, the one I find the MOST FLAWED of all, is the claim that coercion, even to the extent of the outright extortion of schoolchildren, is necessary in order for us to see vaccination levels within our population at a rate high enough to keep people from dying in significant numbers…THAT ASSERTION is, UTTERLY BASELESS…

            In fact, and if folks might stop panicking long enough to rationally evaluate our present situation for what it is in relation to history, they’d see that we presently have virtually no call to be so rash as to follow through with a law as punitive as California SB277. That’s because the results of past real-world scientific experimentation STAND AS PROOF that many assertions that are now popularly being made today, such as SB277’s claim of, ‘mandatory vaccination programs incorporating coercive techniques on the population being the only way to contain vaccine preventable diseases’, simply ISN’T TRUE.

            If we look back on history, never before has our society incorporated such coercive techniques in such drastic measure, yet we in the past fact have otherwise reached the pinicle of success without similar coercion. To the contrary, it was for some time measles was ENTIRELY eliminated from the US and so with vaccination programs that were actually entirely VOLUNTARY!

            And during that entire time, folks ALWAYS before had the option of rejecting the vaccine without their kids being rejected from school.

            And all along and during these years when some folks were choosing to not get vaccinated while most folks voluntarily accepted vaccines, rates of fatality plummeted all the same.


            Nobody in California has died from measles since the 90s and when it was some undocumented families were afraid to seek medical attention for fear of being deported…No kids between the ages of 5 and 17 are dropping dead from pertussis….THE SKY IS NOT FALLING.

            If SB277 was truly about to save lives because we were truly now seeing deaths as the proponents of SB277 would like us to think we are, people with unvaccinated children would already be seeking out vaccines just as was the situation decades ago.

            But turning kids away from school for this reason is utterly asinine under our present circumstances and likely going to result in a whole lot more ills than we have presently.

          • David

            Actually there was one death from the measles outbreak in Disneyland so your stats are wrong.
            You are basing all your assessments on status quo whereas public health agencies and the government are responding to the trend of parents not to vaccinate such that areas of California were below the vaccination rate required for herd immunity.

          • Chris

            “Actually there was one death from the measles outbreak in Disneyland so your stats are wrong.”

            He has been told that. But apparently the woman was already sick and had reduced immunity, so her death was okay dokay in his mind (apparently it was her fault somehow). That woman and all of the kids listed in a the following article are to his mind “nobody”:

            So, yeah, he is selfish and resorts to blaming the victim.

          • Sonja Henie

            For you and David both, I don’t think the woman in Washington state who died was part of the Disney outbreak, or exposed to someone who got measles there.


          • Chris

            I don’t think that was actually determined, mostly because they never figured out where the infectious man had acquired measles. There had been a bit of cross over with the Abbotsford, BC cases in 2014 that came across the border.

            It still shows Slammo is dismissing the dangers of measles, as he deliberately trying to ignore any state other than California (where there are multiple SSPE cases as noted in the LA Times article) and outbreaks not directly related to Disneyland. The type of measles there was directly related to the type of the Amish outbreak in 2014: “Analysis by CDC scientists showed that the measles virus type in this outbreak (B3) was identical to the virus type that caused the large measles outbreak in the Philippines in 2014.”

            Slammo’s lame argument that the disease is not seen in one country (USA) constantly ignores that it is because of high vaccine rates, and diseases do not care about borders. He clearly does not understand that people actually travel over those borders.

          • Sonja Henie

            I agree completely.

          • SlammoFandango

            That is absolute hogwash. No one infected at Disneyland died. The only person who could at all be said to have died of measles since 2003 was a severely immune compromised woman in Washington state who had been hospitalized on more than one occasion for a whole variety of preexisting complications, none of which were measles related. Her prognosis had been grim for months and when she finally did expire, no one had at all suspected that she might have picked up measles right before she died. Her measles weren’t even discovered until autopsy. Nobody has the slightest idea how the measles she got made it to the isolation ward where she had been staying and NOBODY coming to that hospital was ever connected to the Disneyland outbreak or even being in Southern California. The time frames don’t even match. No respectable publication has at all tried to draw a correlation to the infections at Disneyland and this dead woman. Even tabloid publications separate the two events by several paragraphs when both occurrences are mentioned in the same article. If still you think the two events are connected, seek help.

          • David

            I do admit I am wrong. I saw an initial report at the time of the outbreak where they said the woman who died in 2015 (not 2003) was related to Disneyland
            When they serotyped the measles virus it was indeed a different strain. Nevertheless this is a confirmed measles death in 2015

          • SlammoFandango

            That woman was already terminal from a half dozen other illnesses. Nothing was ever going to allow for her to exit through the front doors of that hospital no matter what.

            Now, aside from her it is that since 2003, over 40 million people in the US have died from causes OTHER than measles…

            I think it’s time you come to terms with the fact that you probably don’t need to wet your pants over this and that some people actually want for stories like this to get twisted for the sake of profits.

          • Chris

            So she deserved to die because she was being treated? Where did you get the idea that she was already “terminal”?

            Have you yet figured out how to divide the total number of vaccines given by the total number of NVICP claims yet? When are you going to give me that number and explain what it means?

          • Chris

            “Now, aside from her it is that since 2003, over 40 million people in the US have died from causes OTHER than measles…”

            At an average age of about eighty years old. Yeah, those vaccines are so terribly that the average lifespan in the USA has increased by decades over the last century!

            Also, there have been several deaths from SSPE in the USA. Again from that LA Times article you dismiss: “Officials say they hear a report about SSPE about once a year in California.”

            Among the several who got measles were these (quoting sentence in link) “Twelve of the unvaccinated patients were infants too young to be vaccinated.” Those who get measles as babies have a much higher chance of dying a slow agonizing death from SSPE. So the Disney outbreak may actually cause a few deaths.

            It did cause several to require hospital care, from that same link: “Among the 84 patients with known hospitalization status, 17 (20%) were hospitalized.” Very expensive hospital care, from what you claim is not that bad of an illness. Your brilliance is underwhelming.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh Gawd! Share your Canadian “study” with Slammo and get Slammo’s opinion

          • AutismDadd

            Sure Preacher

          • Ron Roy

            ”There were no effects from thiomersal” BULL! ,

          • Chris

            Oooh, a video! Even better a congress critter who pushed legislation to help supplement companies and his wallet. From : “Another supplement booster, Rep. Dan Burton (R-Ind.), has taken a beating from anti-ephedra activists who accuse him of blocking House hearings on supplement dangers. Burton has received $79,249 in campaign contributions from supplement companies since 1994. Asked if she expects hearings on Wheeler’s death, Barb Michals, head of an anti-ephedra organization called HEAT, says, “If somebody could grab Dan Burton by the ears and read him the riot act, we might get somewhere.”

            And there is even more:

            Thanks for the laughs!

          • Ron Roy

            Repeated immunization with antigen causes systemic autoimmunity in
            mice otherwise not prone to spontaneous autoimmune diseases.
            Overstimulation of CD4+ T cells led to the development of autoantibody-inducing CD4+ T (aiCD4+ T) cell which had undergone T cell receptor (TCR) revision and was capable of inducing autoantibodies. The aiCD4+ T cell was induced by de novo TCR revision but not by cross-reaction, and subsequently overstimulated CD8+
            T cells, driving them to become antigen-specific cytotoxic T
            lymphocytes (CTL). These CTLs could be further matured by antigen
            cross-presentation, after which they caused autoimmune tissue injury
            akin to systemic lupus erythematosus (SLE). Most nerve diseases ARE auto immune diseases.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Repeated immunization with antigen causes systemic autoimmunity in mice

            Yawn. Cite?

          • Ron Roy

            Yawn. The ball’s in your court. Prove that wrong. Citations please.

          • Chris

            You made the claim, so you need to provide the citations. Until you do we will just assume you made it up.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So you don’t have a source for your claim? or is it just made up?

          • shay simmons

            Ron frequently copy/pastes from sources and refuses to credit them, despite being called out on his plagiarism.

          • Ron Roy

            Yawn. Tired go back to sleep.

          • Jonathan Graham

            So you just made that up? Or do you need to hide your sources in order to avoid them being shown for the ridiculous nonsense they are?

          • Ron Roy
          • Jonathan Graham

            I can see why you were trying to hide that.

            An 8-week old mouse has a mass of 20g and these were injected with various levels of things the smallest was 25 µg of SEB every 5 days. That is a dose of 1250µg/kg every 5 days or about 7500 µg/kg/month.

            A newborn generally weighs more than 2.49 kg, a vaccine has between 25µg (monovalent) and 100µg (quadvalent) of antigen. Which means even in some of the most extreme circumstances we are looking at 40µg/kg. You would have to vaccinate an infant thirty times in five days to reach the dose they were using in mice. So the clinical relevance of this study – at least as it pertains to vaccination – is zero.

          • Ron Roy

            I wasn’t trying to hide anything ( that’s your department ). When you take into consideration that mice can detoxify any harmful substance with the vitamin C they produce that lowers the concentration of the aluminum, that was injected into them, considerably making it comparable to the aluminum injected into babies.

          • Jonathan Graham

            that lowers the concentration of the aluminum

            Uh Ron – you didn’t read that study at all did you. ROFL.

          • Ron Roy

            I did you didn’t.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Well then explain your comment about aluminum. 🙂

          • Ron Roy

            A little more info for your thick head:

            Dr. Kawahara’s research on aluminum
            and its neurotoxic effect is discussed by Dr. Humphries, in regards to
            pregnancy. Dr. Kawahara’s article is supported with 176 references in
            the medical literature: aluminum is a death factor for cells.

            It should be noted that Dr. Offit holds a patent on one of the
            vaccines in the childhood vaccine schedule, and earns royalties from the
            sale of that vaccine.

          • Jonathan Graham

            A little more info for your thick head:

            The question asked was about the study you pretended you read. You made a comment about aluminum in reference to THAT study. I’d like you to explain what you meant. 🙂 🙂 🙂

          • Jonathan Graham

            Considering you haven’t replied, do you need a hint as to why your comment about aluminum with regard to that study makes you look pretty ignorant?

          • Ron Roy

            I gave Twisty the reply you want go look. I won’t repeat myself for a shill.

          • Jonathan Graham

            In other words you didn’t read that study. It didn’t have anything to do with aluminum. Thanks for admitting it – and looking more ignorant than usual.

          • Jonathan Graham

            No explanation as to why you are talking about aluminum in reference to a study that contained no aluminum? No?

          • Mike Stevens

            That isn’t about vaccines, Ron.

          • Ron Roy

            You didn’t even read the article or your lying through your teeth as usual. Small excerpt:Repeated immunization with antigen causes systemic autoimmunity in mice otherwise not prone to spontaneous autoimmune diseases.

          • Mike Stevens

            I’ve read it Ron.
            Immunisation is not the same as vaccination (although vaccination will induce immunity through immunisation).
            For this study, they used a number of antigens that occur in natural infections and repeatedly exposed mice to them, using them as “immunogens”. By this method they provoked autoimmunity. They never used any vaccines or vaccine components, as you would have realised if YOU had read the paper.

            If anything, this study demonstrates that repeated exposure to antigens from infections will generate autoimmune responses (in mice).
            Logically, one way to reduce this exposure would be to….VACCINATE.
            Thanks for providing evidence to support vaccination, Ron.

          • Chris

            Perhaps he thinks he read, he saw the words but did not understand them.

          • Thomas Mohr

            You have plagiarized this from here: (note: copy paste without reference IS plagiarizing). However, since you do not have a proper education you are unable to understand these things. An antigen is anything that triggers an immune response. These guys propose that repeated exposure to an antigen may lead to autoimmunity. Now guess in which scenario the antigen burden is higher: during vaccination where you have a small dose three times or during the yearly measles epidemic where one is countless times exposed to measles ? A hint: 3 times is far less then countless times.

          • Ron Roy

            Let me give you another lecture Tommyboy. Antigens were never meant to be injected directly into the body where they will stimulate the last line of defense that we have. By doing so we risk developing an auto immune response to to some of the ingredients in vaccines. By bypassing the mucosal part of the immune system, through vaccines, we corrupt the natural order of things and corrupt the immune system.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Antigens were never meant to be injected directly into the body

            By what method did the almighty tell you this Ron? Apparently they were meant to get in there somehow because they do.

          • Ron Roy

            That HAS to be the dumbest reply you EVER came up with! You’re slipping badly Johnny. Too many aluminum containing vaccines I suspect. Since when do you believe in the Almighty? All that aside where in a natural setting would antigens be injected into the human body? Did you see a picture or video of a syringe on a cave wall? In nature antigens go through the mucosal aspect of the immune system, not to mention stomach acids etc. before getting to where vaccines put them directly. Bypassing the normal natural aspects of the immune system is more than unscientific.

          • Chris

            “All that aside where in a natural setting would antigens be injected into the human body?”

            Mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, other bitey animals, thorns, and even getting scratched by an aluminum chain link fence. Have you never been outside in your entire life?

          • Ron Roy

            The bites of Mosquitoes, ticks, fleas, other bitey animals don’t contain all the health destroying ingredients of vaccines and their penetration is minuscule by comparison. The same with thorns, and as far as getting scratched by an aluminum chain link fence that aluminum is in a solid form which makes it unlikely any will be absorbed.

          • Chris

            Bah, ha, ha, ha, ha!!!!

            Like dengue, malaria, tetanus and a bunch of other pathogens are healthy! By the way the dirt that is outside (something you seem to be unfamiliar with) is full of aluminum. And the aluminum chain link fence is actually covered with an aluminum oxide, because the most common metal element on this planet’s crust is very reactive.

            Oh, wow. You really are a parody of someone who failed to even make it to high school.

          • Ron Roy

            You didn’t even go to school!

          • Ron Roy

            Who ever said they were healthy? Are you sober?

          • Jonathan Graham

            Since when do you believe in the Almighty?

            I’m pointing out the rather obvious fact that unless the Almighty is whispering in your ear. You are just making up what should and shouldn’t be done. If the Almighty is talking to you then perhaps you need to see a therapist.

            where in a natural setting would antigens be injected into the human body?

            Where in a natural setting would CPR be administered? This is just the naturalistic fallacy.

          • But of course:

            Rose thorns (tetanus), mosquitos (malaria), dog bites (rabies) immediately come to mind.

          • Jonathan Graham
          • Yes….the Australian anti-vaxxers confuse me the most with their natural fallacy.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m reading that at the moment.

            Human beings have reached the levels of comfort and health we enjoy in the West by defying nature.

          • Jonathan Graham

            It’s a fun read, the first two stories are the best though.

          • “All that aside where in a natural setting would antigens be injected into the human body?”

            The most common cause of tetanus infections is a rose thorn.

          • Chris

            “Antigens were never meant to be injected directly into the body where
            they will stimulate the last line of defense that we have.”

            Wait! What? So mosquitoes do not transmit malaria, Zika, dengue, West Nile, Yellow Fever and other antigens!? Alert the presses! Stop all research in preventing mosquitoes from spreading in Florida! Antigens were never meant to be injected by mosquitoes!

            Oh, and then there are those tick and flea bites that never inject antigens in anybody. Because Ron Roy said something, something, reasons.

          • Sonja Henie

            Don’t forget tetanus, often injected via thorns on roses.

          • Chris

            Which can also be transmitted by “bug bite”! See table in Philosophic Objection to Vaccination as a Risk for Tetanus Among Children Younger Than 15 Years.

          • Ron Roy

            Thanks for making my case. If the germs / toxins from these mosquitoes had gone in our mouths instead of through our skin they would have been greatly weakened if not killed outright by the antibodies produced by our mucous membranes.

          • Chris

            Oh, wow! You just keep digging deeper.

            So it is perfectly safe to drink water with cholera, typhoid and hepatitis A! You are full of gems today.

          • Ron Roy

            I would bet more people could drink contaminated water and suffer fewer effects that having that SAME amount injected.

          • Chris

            That is utterly ridiculous, just like every other thing you say.

            Do tell us how well our mucus membranes diphtheria bacteria.

          • Ron Roy

            That’s one bacteria that the innate immune system ( IgA ) will not always destroy in susceptible / unhealthy individuals however any preparation using garlic will kill that bacteria.

          • Jonathan Graham

            any preparation

            1×10^-30mol/L of garlic will kill all diphtheria? Amazing!

          • Ron Roy

            Garlic: also known as Russian penicillin.

          • Jonathan Graham

            …and entirely ineffectual as an antibiotic. Like a lot of substances there are concentrations which have antimicrobial properties and poorly educated people like yourself probably confuse that with useful antibiotic action. 🙂

          • Ron Roy
          • Jonathan Graham

            Citation from someone who is smarter than a block of wood please.

          • Ron Roy

            And Johnny’s down for the count! Great comeback Johnny. Is that the best your calculator can come up with?

          • Jonathan Graham

            I just want something that is written by someone who can produce some statistically strong evidence. If you don’t have that – then why bother reading?

          • Ron Roy

            No you’re wrong again!

            • Antimicrobials act against a wide variety of organisms while antibiotics act only against bacteria. As you stated ” a lot of substances there are concentrations which have antimicrobial properties”. So garlic or a concentration of garlic will act against a wide variety of organisms including diphtheria.

          • Jonathan Graham

            a concentration of garlic will act against a wide variety of organisms including diphtheria.

            …and I guess you need a hint as to why this doesn’t make your point?

          • shay simmons

            Ingest enough garlic and no one will want to get close enough to you for any risk of contagion.

          • Jonathan Graham

            Possibly…but what I describe is not a large amount of garlic. (the exponent is negative) 🙂

          • JGC

            Why would you bet this, Ron–from what evidence does your belief that drinking water contaminated with cholera, typhoid and hepatitis A would pose less risk than being vaccinated according to the recommended childhood schedule?
            I mean, you didn’t just pull that notion from your nether regions, did you?

          • Ron Roy

            Anything that bypasses our natural defenses, like injections, is far deadlier than when those same toxins are consumed orally. The greatest number of antibodies our bodies produce are through our mucus membranes ( IgA )

          • JGC

            “Anything that bypasses our natural defenses, like injections, is far deadlier than when those same toxins are consumed orally. ”

            Citations needed, Ron. Note that first you’ll have to demonstrate that IM injection ‘bypasses’ the bodies natural defenses, and then demonstrate that bypassing them uniformly results in increased toxicity.

            And of course, somewhere down the road you’re going to have to also prove that this supposed increase in toxicity causes the various ingredients found in vaccine formulations to be toxic or otherwise harmful at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination.

            You’ve got a lot of work cut out for you.

          • Ron Roy


            Some vaccine websites state that because we injest high levels of
            aluminum, the injected aluminum is no big deal. Well, consider this
            quote from Dr. Sears:

            “We know aluminum is a neurotoxin. We also
            know that humans can ingest huge amounts without harm, since 99% of it
            passes out through the stools. I’m sure Dr. Offit knows that, so I’m
            curious as to why he’d use the “babies ingest tons of aluminum anyway”
            argument.” [4]

            So only 1 percent of ingested aluminum is absorbed.

            Now let’s look at the amount of aluminum babies consume:
            “Breast milk contains 40mcg/L aluminum, milk-based formulas contain ~225mcg/L, and soy-based formulas contain ~500mcg/L.”
            of each of those amounts equals .4 mcg, 2.25 mcg, and 5 mcg. So their
            kidneys only have to filter about .4 to 5mcg of aluminum from daily
            milk/formula consumption.

            However, 100% of injected aluminum has
            to be filtered by the kidneys. So, the amount of aluminum in vaccines is
            not just ‘a drop in the bucket’ compared to consumed aluminum.
            mcg – 5 mcg of aluminum from food sources pales in comparison to the 295
            – 1225 mcg a child could receive in one day from vaccines (The exact
            amount depends on the brands given).

            A very recent study (Here)
            found that at least 100 mcg of daily aluminum consumption was
            associated with greater cognitive decline. 1% of 100 mcg of ingested
            aluminum is 1 mcg, which would imply that breast milk at .4 mcg is
            perfectly safe, and perhaps soy infant formula isn’t such a great idea.

            furthermore, in the book, “Aluminum and Health” By Hillel J. Gitelman,
            the small amounts of aluminum absorbed by the intestines are usually
            excreted by the kidneys, and accumulation only occurs in cases of high
            chronic intake. However, the aluminum in vaccines may not be as easily
            excreted. With the intention of defending vaccine safety, Dr. Paul Offit
            said that after 2 weeks, 85% of the aluminum from vaccines has been
            excreted (and that’s for the average healthy person). But,
            unfortunately, that would mean that we still have 15% of 295 mcg – 1225
            mcg of aluminum unaccounted for (equalling 44.25 mcg – 183.75 mcg from
            just one office visit). Has anyone done any studies to see what happens
            to the remaining 15% of the injected aluminum? Is it ever excreted, or
            does it accumulate in brain and skeletal tissue?

            I added the above information after reading the study about aluminum consumption.
            Here is my old post:
            toxic dose of aluminum for an adult is 350 mcg or .350 mg. A certain
            brand of OTC extra strength antacid tablets contains 160 mg of aluminum
            hydroxide in each tablet, and the directions say to take 2-4 tablets up
            to four times a day. So there has to be a difference between ingested
            and injected aluminum or else a single antacid tablet would be toxic.

            the high levels of aluminum found in soy baby formula cannot be used to
            say that the aluminum in vaccines is safe. Also, already being exposed
            to a toxic substance puts you at a higher risk of toxicity, not a lower

            And really, it just makes sense that ingested would be
            different than injected. If a child swallows a dime, the whole dime is
            passed in the stools. It is not digested, and therefore does not enter
            the bloodstream. However, vaccines are injected into muscle tissue and
            100% of the ingredients are absorbed, over time, and therefore have to
            be filtered out by the kidneys.

            So why does this matter? Click on
            this link to read an excerpt of Dr. Sears’ book that shows how high the
            aluminum levels are and the risks this causes:

            The Vaccine Book by
            Dr. Bob Sears, contains much more information about aluminum toxicity
            studies and cites, among other things, that aluminum can cause
            neurological harm, newborns are at increased risk of aluminum toxicity,
            aluminum toxicity is NOT rare in newborns, and that this toxicity is
            difficult to detect by observing symptoms.

          • JGC

            Ron, is there a reaon you’re comparing aluminum exposure resulting from vaccination to something other than aluminum exposure resulting from dietary sources?

            Do you have any evidence that aluminum at exposure levels achievable by routine vaccination is toxic or otherwise harmful?

            Or does your argument take no form other than “Ooooh, aluminum! Scary stuff…”?

          • Ron Roy

            ”is there a reaon you’re comparing aluminum exposure resulting from vaccination to something other than aluminum exposure resulting from dietary sources?” To something ” other than dietary sources” Did you bother reading what I posted? The article DOES compare aluminum from dietary / consumed sources.

          • JGC

            It compares aluminum absorption to aluminum exposure, two very different parameters.

          • Ron Roy

            Nice play on words but I won’t let you get away with it. The paper compares INJECTED aluminum TO INGESTED aluminum NOT aluminum EXPOSURE, which implies any source of aluminum we come in contact with, as in pots and pans.

          • JGC

            If we’re going to argue along those lines I’ll point out that it doesn’t compare ingested aluminum to injected aluminum: it compares absorption following ingestion to absorption following injection. absorption also isn’t exposure, and my question to you wasn’t whether aluminum absorption varies depending on the route of administration but what evidence demonstrates that (bold for emphasis) “Anything that bypasses our natural defenses, like injections, is far deadlier than when those same toxins are consumed orally.”

            Perhaps you could answer the question asked?

          • Ron Roy

            Drink the most deadly snake venom in the world and very little harm if any is experienced but through a snake bite where it enters the bloodstream your dead! Now I know you’ll try and deny this too but that’s expected.

          • JGC

            You didn’t claim, however “Snake venom which bypasses our natural defenses is far deadlier than when those same toxins are consumed orally”, Ron: you claimed instead “Anything that bypasses our natural defenses is far deadlier than when those same toxins are consumed orally.

          • Ron Roy

            You’d have a hard time to find anything that is more toxic taken orally than when injected.

          • Ron Roy

            The absorption rate of aluminum when ingested is less than .5% the absorption rate from injections is 100%.

          • JGC

            “the absorption rate from injections is 100%”
            Only ifyou’re speaking of IV injection: this is not the case with IM injection where aluminum salts are not appreciably more bioavailable nor are retentions rates appreciably higher than is the case with ingested aluminum. Vaccines are not delivered by IM injection, not IV injection.

          • Ron Roy

            Don’t you get tired of being WRONG? The absorption rate from VACCINES / INJECTIONS is 100%:

   The first excerpt below is about the injectable, toxic aluminum
            adjuvants that have been added to virtually all infant and adult
            vaccines for the past 70+ years There is no safe dose of aluminum or
            mercury, and neither have any nutritional value. (Aluminum is poorly
            absorbed when swallowed [0.5% absorption] but is 100% absorbed into the
            blood stream when injected.) The CDC/AAP (American Academy of
            Pediatrics)-mandated immunization schedule ensures that a total of
            nearly 5,000 micrograms of the mitochondrial toxin aluminum will be
            injected into the average American baby by the time he or she reaches 18
            months (before which, by the way, is when many of the alleged
            “inherited” mitochondrial diseases become manifest)!

          • Chris

            Snicker. You used “globalresearch”… that is hilarious.

          • Ron Roy

            And you use?

          • Chris

            Peer reviewed research by reputable qualified researchers usually indexed on PubMed. Not credulous cherry picked articles by retired doctors with questionable qualifications published on an antisemitic website with dubious links to reality:

          • Ron Roy

            Ah yes reputable researchers whose research was financed by drug companies. Yes of course very credible information.

          • Chris

            Lame. You just don’t like the answers.

          • Mike Stevens

            So if you ingest 200 times the amount of aluminium that is in an injection, you will be poisoned – that’s what you are saying.

            You are finally understanding this, Ron, well done.

            Do you have any idea why this doesn’t happen to children?

          • Ron Roy

            Depends on what form of aluminum. And YOU’RE the one that’s finally getting it!

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s all toxic, surely?

          • Mike Stevens
          • Ron Roy

            ”Do you have any evidence that aluminum at exposure levels achievable by routine vaccination is toxic or otherwise harmful?” Glad you finally asked ( as though that information wasn’t already shown in previous posts ). Small excerpt from this article:Aluminum, as is mercury, is a known potent mitochondrial toxin, and
            every cell in the body, especially the brain cells of infants, is highly
            susceptible to permanent damage from those two heavy metals, especially
            when they are used in combination and especially when they are injected
            – as was the case during the 1990s when the autism epidemic was
            escalating from rare (1/10,000 to “normal” (1/150). AND :

          • JGC

            Ron, your global link offers no evidence that aluminum at exposure levels achievable by routine childhood vaccination is toxic or otherwise harmful.

            Is it possible you don’t even understand what evidence would be sufficient to support your position?

          • Ron Roy

            Yes it did however if you need more info:

          • JGC

            Please, not Tomljenovic and Shaw again. The paper is irreparably methodologically flawed, rendering any conclusions drawn invalid.
            Their biggest error? T and S compared the incidence of autism spectrum disorders in a particular year against the total aluminum content for the recommended pediatric schedule in that same year, not the total aluminum those diagnosed as autistic that year were exposed two between 6 to 21 years previously.
            They’re argument is that individuals who were exposed to different amounts of aluminum as the result of vaccination may have been made autistic by very different amounts of aluminum entirely different individuals were exposed to decades later

          • Jonathan Graham

            A very recent study (Here) found that at least 100 mcg of daily aluminum consumption was associated with greater cognitive decline.

            Too bad the original blogger didn’t read that study nor did you bother to fact check it. Two problems with that paper – the correlation isn’t strong, you could easily look at the same data and say there was no correlation – but you didn’t look at the data – so here we are. That said, this is also a chronic dose. Which is likely to be higher risk than vaccination.

          • I wonder if Ron Roy has issues with the FluMist – guessing not.

          • Chris

            Perhaps he wants us to go back to OPV for polio.

          • AutismDadd

            Who is exposed yearly with life long immunity from actually experiencing measles? Its the vaccinated who can’t rely on their “immunity” status that are living in fear.

          • JGC

            Uhhh…Ron? Did you notice how much antigen how frequently the authors repeatedly injected mice with in order to deliberately cause them to develop an autoimmune response? Did you notice they did not inject them intramuscularly? (BALB/c mice were injected i.p. with 500 µg OVA every 5 d)?

            Do you realize this does not model the recommended childhood vaccination schedule in any way, shape or form?

          • AutismDadd

            In a nut shell, injection over and over is problematic especially when it involves toxins and forms of protein.

          • AutismDadd

            Oh the allusions of grandeur abound among the pro-vacs

          • Boris Ogon

            Oh the allusions of grandeur

            This is of course a masterpiece of irony, but the routine just isn’t going to cut it as “outsider art.”

          • AutismDadd

            Thanks for stopping by to do your clown act Boris. I love starting my day knowing there are bozo’s like you in the world.

        • “Actually, the blanket statement, “Vaccines are safe and effective” is commonplace. ” Sure.

          “That statement strongly suggests ‘that there is no risk with vaccination whatsoever’. HOW? Food is safe, doesn’t mean you won’t choke ever. Water is safe, doesn’t mean no-one drowns. Cars are safe, doesn’t mean car accidents don’t exist.

          “And it’s been my experience when questioning risk vs reward or inherent danger from a medical intervention vs promises of lasting health, brings about ALL KINDS OF HOSTILE CRITICISM….so let’s be honest; if one questions convention, there WILL be consequences from the pro-vax camp.”

          No, dear, there is nothing wrong with questioning – the problem is that your refuse to accept the answers.

      • AutismDadd

        Another Puppet account

    • Mike Stevens

      “Science has proven that autism and schizophrenia are caused by immune activation during brain development.”

      That being the case, it is vital to prevent kids or pregnant women getting infections, since these events pose a massive challenge to the immune system and are linked to significant immune activation.

      I am so glad you would therefore support the use of vaccination as a means to do this, and to reduce the risks of “autism and schizophrenia”. Well done you!

      • Also, CRS is a known cause of autism.

        It’s caused by natural immunity to Rubella.

      • Chris

        Yep. Sometimes I think the really awful flu I had while pregnant with my oldest child may have been a cause of his neurological issues from neonatal seizures to his Level 2 autism (this includes not being able to speak at age three).

        I sincerely doubt it had anything to do with his genetic heart disorder. But that leads back to genetics. He had a genetic screening for then eighteen known sequences that cause the disorder, but he did not have any of them. The genetics doctor, whose main research focus is the genetics of autism, would have liked to get a full $$$$ genetics screening to see if there was a DNA connection between the cardiac and neurological disorders.

        So, I now really favor influenza and Tdap vaccines for pregnant women. Also any woman who is planning to get pregnant should probably get another MMR to guard against both rubella and mumps. The immunity to mumps even after getting the actual disease will wane (I got it a second during the 1968 mumps epidemic, I am know I am not the only one), and it can cause congenital problems.

    • Ray Fischer

      You are an evil liar trying to kill people.

      The autism-vaccine link is a fraud. There was never any link and it has been thoroughly debunked.

      • Plus, I’d appreciate it if the anti-vaxxers would stop using me as a pawn.

        • Marianna Roberg

          Me, too. Aside from the time the idiot jabbed me in the bone with the needle, I’ve never been “vaccine injured”, and my brother and I are both autistic.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          And me. My late paternal grandfather was autistic; four generations of his descendants, from my father down to my grandkids, have autistic people.

          It’s genetic.

          But then, the pro-disease child haters cult thinks that we are sub-human and don’t breed.

          • But even if we didn’t breed (which, obviously does happen):

            They never seem to think to do a Hardy-Weinberg equation to figure out the amount of carriers, do they? If they wanted to prevent autism, they could advocate for the MMR (because CRS is a known cause of autism)and that never seems to happen.

      • The link has been increasingly established by recent science that has nothing to do with Wakefields papers or theories.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          No. No, it hasn’t.

          You cannot make baseless assertions like that and expect anyone to believe you.

          All the research has shown no link whatsoever between any vaccines and autism – autism is a normal genetic variant of human brain wiring.

          You are so certain that vaccines cause autism? Which ones, eh?

          There have been at least five generations of autistic people in my family – four generations of which are still alive.

          The only vaccine my late grandfather (born at the turn of the 20th century) was given, was smallpox. Guess which vaccine is the only one the two youngest generations *didn’t* have?

          The ‘vaccines cause autism’ scare-myth has been thoroughly and comprehensively debunked in studies all over the world.

          • Only MMR has been much studied in relation to autism. The MMR-autism studies are being misused by vaccine proponents by applying them to ALL vaccines. its nonsense.

          • JGC

            So provide credible evidence demonstrating a causal association exists between childhood vaccines other than MMR and we’ll talk.
            I mean, you do actually have some–right?

          • Yes. See the articles on immune activation and aluminum on the VP website.

          • JGC

            I’ve seen them: none demonstrate the existence of a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders. In fact, there isn’t even sufficient evidence to demonstrate a causal association between immune activation and autisms spectrum disorders at this time.

        • Ray Fischer

          You’re a liar. In fact the autism rate has increased while vaccine use has dropped, which directly refutes your evil.

          Why do you want to kill children?

          • Why does pharma want to harm children? To sell drugs for psychiatric and immune system diseases caused by vaccines.

            The real evil happening here is increasingly apparent.

          • Ray Fischer

            Why do you want to kill children? It is a fact that vaccines have saved tens of millions of lives. You would rather see polio and smallpox and influenza and diptheria killing people by the millions because you are insane

          • SlammoFandango

            Ah, but we don’t vaccinate against Small Pox, do we? We don’t because the virus does not pose a clear and present danger, right? And since there is always at least ‘some’ inherent risk from even the most common a medical intervention, the current risk of the Small Pox shot outweighs any risk posed by any such virus that ISN’T currently present.

            Why you would want to attack people who follow such sound logic is beyond me.

            You guys love to make the claim that you’re on the side of saving lives but never ask yourselves how that could be. If there really isn’t a risk, is it fair to claim you’re actually “saving lives”? That’s all just a bunch of emotional stuff and nonsense.

            What ‘safety’ is given newborn babies from a shot to prevent Hepatitis B when it is newborn babies are not prostitutes nor sharing used hypodermic needles with junkies while pretty much only those aformentioned behaviors alone are how any of us might contract Hepatitis B? Why you would attack parents for not complying with the vaccine schedule in such a ridiculous instance is beyond me…idunno and yet when reasonable parents question such absurdity they are attacked as being simple-minded…

            Maybe it’s that you’ve bought into all the propoganda of fear and second guessing you fear instinct makes you unnecessarily ruthless…seriously man, you really don’t need to be that afraid.

            Because unlike as recently as 40 years ago, nowhere in this country is raw human waste routinely dumped into waterways. So even if Wild Polio were to show up in the US population, it would be virtually impossible for it to spread as it once did from unsuspecting people ingesting the virus in a manner that was once so commonplace. Whether you want to give all the credit for why we don’t see polio to past vaccination efforts or not is irrelevant; Polio is no longer endemic and it isn’t coming back because it has no accommodations. So then, why would you still attack a parent for not wanting to risk a possible reaction from shot designed to prevent a disease that is now impossible to contract? I see the way you ‘Pro-vaxxers’ then attack such logic and claim ‘Science’ is on your side, as ludicrous.

            And if it is civilians in this country have pretty much always accepted vaccines as technically voluntary yet we wiped out Small Pox and Polio etc., and also for a time eliminated all Measles from the US VOLUNTARILY, and if it is that success stands as a real life Scientific experiment, where do you come off claiming that the only way to keep these viruses at bay is with mandatory vaccinations?

            Because if it is that in the past, NOT forcing people against their conscious-will in the effort of curtailing VPDs proved scientifically successful, you can not make the claim that people MUST be FORCED in order to be scientifically successful again.

          • Mike Stevens

            “What ‘safety’ is given newborn babies from a shot to prevent Hepatitis B
            when it is newborn babies are not prostitutes nor sharing used
            hypodermic needles with junkies”

            Prior to introduction of the neonatal Hep B vaccination, there were about 12,000 -25,000 cases of acute Hep B in infants and young kids every year.
            Only half of those were acquired from a Hep B positive mother during pregnancy/delivery, meaning the other half were acquired from “normal” contacts with other infected people within the family group or infant playmates.
            Nobody is suggesting 10,000 babies every year were injecting drugs or were prostitutes, silly.

          • Ray Fischer

            Wow. You’re insane.

            Smallpax vaccine is no longer needed because the smallpox vaccine eradicated smallpox. To use that fact to argue that we don’t need vaccines is the thinking of somebody who is mentally ill

          • SlammoFandango

            First of all, i never implied that we don’t need vaccines. I’ve never implied that they don’t work or that the risk outweighs the benifit in all cases. And even you agree then that it’s perfectly sane to not vaccinate against small pox since small pox isn’t endemic, yes?

            So why in your opinion as a mental health expert, is a parent mentally ill for not vaccinating their child against polio? Couldn’t it just be that since there is no polio to catch, the opposite is true and the mentally sound thing to do is NOT vaccinate against Polo?

            Try to not answer that based upon any past decision you yourself made or how you feel about that, but instead what would be the rational thing to choose as a parent making the choice this moment.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Do you understand the difference between ‘endemic’ and ‘extinct’?

          • Sonja Henie

            Polio is just an airplane ride away from Afghanistan, Pakistan and now Nigeria.

          • SlammoFandango

            The last time polio took an airplane ride into the US without any already knowing was 1993. Nothing happened. And that’s because unlike Afghanistan,Pakistan, and Nigeria, we don’t commonly allow for raw sewage to lay about where people cold ever make contact with polio virus.

          • Sonja Henie

            You don’t know that. That’s the last time it caused disease in the US, but very unlikely to be the last time it was brought in.

            Polio incidence increased as sanitation increased, both in the US and Europe. You don’t just get it from raw sewage.

          • SlammoFandango

            We’re you not raised speaking English at home? If so, I forgive you. Otherwise, you are raising a contention when there isn’t one.

            The most common way of contracting polio is to swallow the virus while it’s hosted in a tiny bit of human feces and while that feces is suspended in water. And the most common way that happens is for raw sewage to enter body of water humans might later make contact with and drink.

          • Sonja Henie

            I was raised in Pittsburgh, speaking “Pittsburghese”. In that language, you’re a jagoff!

            Are you that stupid (foolish question, I know the answer is “yes”) that you do not know that polio increased as sanitation increased, that it is also spread orally, and like with many diseases, also sometimes no transmission source can be found? Do I have to post a link, jag?

          • SlammoFandango

            Wait, hold up…are you saying rates of polio infection increased because quality of sanitation increased?

            (Wow, you really are the definition of asinine)

            Sister, the last epidemic spread as it did exactly because it was the capacity of sanitation systems couldn’t keep up with common people’s ability to travel.

          • Chris

            The words in a different color are links that will explain it to you. Try reading them. Here is another link with an explanation:

            I know you won’t bother to click on the link but here is the pertinent paragraph:

            In the immediate prevaccine era, improved sanitation allowed less frequent exposure and increased the age of primary infection. Boosting of immunity from natural exposure became more infrequent and the number of susceptible persons accumulated, ultimately resulting in the occurrence of epidemics, with 13,000 to 20,000 paralytic cases reported annually.

            One thing that made it seem unusual when cesspools were being replaced with sewer pipes is that polio seemed to affect the well off more than the poor (unlike cholera and other causes of dysentery). There is much about this in Polio: An American Story by David M. Oshinsky.

            By the way, when was the last epidemic of polio in the USA?

          • Sonja Henie

            Yes, that’s what I’m saying. If you had opened the links, which you obviously didn’t, you’d know that. In fact, if you think you’re such a vaccine guru, should have known it already. You can find link after link after link on this.

            Boy are you dumb, and you are not my brother. He’s much nicer than you.

          • Chris

            In my reply to him I gave him yet another link, and did quote part of it.

            The bit with replacing cesspools with sewer lines has another time dependent angle. The sewer lines often did not go to sewage treatment plants, but were dumped into rivers, lakes and into the sea/ocean (Victoria, BC still dumps into the Straight of Juan de Fuca).

            While babies and toddlers did not have direct contact with sewage, it turned out that changed when they were older and did water sports (like swimming, or just going to the beach). It turned out there was a real reason to avoid lakes, rivers and ocean beaches. Where I live it took the deterioration of a large lake that formed its eastern border to bring in sewage treatment in the late 1950s!

            So much for the “Super Natural” Pacific Northwest and British Columbia! (“Super Natural British Columbia” is an ad jingle… which makes me snicker since we have relatives there in the lumber industry (which is how late father-in-law paid UBC tuition) and I loved telling some folks from California who were moving there because it was “so much cleaner” about sewage treatment in Victoria!).

          • Ray Fischer

            You’ve never implied that you’re sane or anything but a crazy ideologue.

            There is no smallpox. There is measles, and mumps, and chicken pox, and influenza, and a bunch of other diseases

          • JGC

            The evidence demonstrating that psychiatric and immune system diseases are causally associated with routine childhood vaccination would be what exactly, VP?
            Be specific.

          • SlammoFandango

            Who told you vaccine use has dropped? It has only dropped within select demographics yet meanwhile, the overall population has become even more compliant.

            Poor, less educated people are lining up to get their children vaccinated at higher rates than ever before and these large numbers of people falling in line more than make up for the small percentage of wealthy, highly educated people.

            Claims that vaccine compliance percentages have gone down simply don’t match public statistics.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Strictly, it is the number of antigens in each vaccine which has dropped – dramatically.

            But as more people have been trained to recognise autism, and what constitutes autism is being better understood, expect the rise to continue despite the lower challenge to the immune system.

            Oh, and there should be a sudden rise in the number of girls and women being recognised as autistic soon, once the different way they present is acknowledged and added to the DSM.

    • Ray Fischer

      Measles used to kill about half a million people a year in the US
      Now? Less than 100

      Tell us again how bad vaccines are.

      • Mike Stevens

        Not so actually.
        It used to kill around 500 a year, in the immediate prevaccine era.
        Now (post vaccine) there are virtually no acute measles deaths each year (last year there was one).

        • Ray Fischer

          Right. 500,000 cases, 500 deaths. So vaccines only saved the lives of 400+ people a years

      • SlammoFandango

        You are terribly misinformed. Nobody in the US has at all died of measles since the 1990s. (One already terminally woman was found post-mortem to have contracted measles after already surrendering to her death bed*)

        Last year the press spun the story of the Disneyland outbreak killing 100 people, which is false. 99.7% of infected people, including all the immune compromised ones, don’t die from contracting Measles.

    • Louise Haig

      You are an idiot, there is no proof at all anywhere that vaccines cause autism, stop cherry picking from woo filled websites. Do you really want a return to children dying in their hundreds of thousands from preventable disease.? I think it’s time to take your tin foil hat off….

      • Chris

        From the cherry picked studies VP has been using, one would think s/he/it is more concerned with the health of mice and rats than s/he/it is of human children.


        • The arguments we make are consistent with and representative of findings in the field.

          If you think we are guilty of cherry picking, then cite contrary results (i.e. more than 1).

          • Chris

            Ha, ha, ha, that is just too funny for words. Your reading comprehension has been dismal, and I already cited several contrary results by real scientists.

      • We use only peer reviewed scientific citations.

        • Chris

          Hand cherry picked, using only the finest filters to remove any human studies and those that disagree with VP.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I find it fascinating that someone going by the name ‘Andre Angelantoni’ on Facebook has been making the exact same arguments on a thread on the ‘Voices for Vaccines’ page today.

            And posting links to the Vaccine Papers site.


        • JGC

          ‘We use only peer reviewed scientific citations.”


          Then please cite the single peer-reviewed scientific journal article that, in your in your opinion, presents the most credible and compelling evidence demonstrating the existence of a causal association between routine childhood vaccination and autism spectrum disorders, so we can discuss it.

  • Ahm7

    Funny, I just had a friend post a pic of her toddler with measles. Her Dr told her he got it from the vaccine. Also, look up atypical measles. It happens to the vaccinated.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      Doctor? Or Naturopath, chiropractor or homœopath?

      • Ahm7

        The same Dr that gave her kid the mmr.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          The immune response to the measles vaccine can look like measles (after all, it is the immune response to the ‘wild’ virus that causes the symptoms) but it isn’t the disease, and cannot be passed on to anyone else.

          • The measles vaccine contains a live virus, so yes its the disease. The virus is attenuated, but it can cause typical measles in some people.

          • Chris

            Then prove the present American MMR vaccine is more dangerous than wild measles, mumps and rubella infections. Produce some actual verifiable data instead of a unsupported statement.

            Just post the PMIDs, not a link to your cherry picking website.

          • SlammoFandango

            Well, nobody in the US has died from Measles, Mumps, or Rubella this century. Since nobody out of a population of 320 million people has at all been dying from these viruses in their wild form, yet over 100 deaths are reported each year which doctors have reported as being associated with severe vaccine reactions…..yeah it’s true.

            More people are dying right after receiving the MMR vaccine than are dying from the actual diseases the vaccine is designed to prevent.

            The truth is what it is…

          • Sonja Henie

            What a lie! Lying liars lie lots. 11 deaths since 2000 plus 32 SSPE deaths. Meanwhile, there is not one medically documented death from the vaccine.

          • SlammoFandango

            Those are very dubious connections being made and yet that total even still is only 11. We also can not determine a direct correlation between Measles and SSPE because SSPE is so rare of a reaction. It also is that nobody has really done all that much work in isolating SSPE as being caused entirely independently by Measles, which is highly unlikely or that it is triggered by the Measles virus exclusively, which is also quite unlikely.

            That said, the MOST CONSERVATIVE estimates put the number of severe adverse reaction to the Merck MMR which resulted in death due to severe adverse reactions per the opinions of treating physicians and since 1990 is no less than 397 deaths.

            In truth, many more deaths beyond these 397 deaths have been reported and billions of dollars in damage settlements have been paid without direct admission of culpability.

          • Sonja Henie

            What BS! SSPE is well known to be a late side effect of measles. Plus, 397 deaths is totally untrue. Post a cite from a reliable source, not some antivax site.

          • SlammoFandango

            Do you consider VARS an antivax site?

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s “VAERS”, not “VARS”.
            Do you understand what reports on VAERS are, and how there is no causal attribution that can be drawn from these reports?

          • SlammoFandango

            I would agree that it is virtually impossible to establish causal attribution due to even just the mere fact alone that we’re dealing with cases that occured outside any and all environmental controls.

            That is exactly the point I was speaking to and after Sonja Henie made the asinine claim of there being dozens of recent SSPE deaths caused by only the wild virus. I countered her hysterical suggestion by pointing out how it is also entirely possible for SSPE to be triggered by a vaccine also…it IS a possibility.

            Look, any reasonable person would understand that without any existing environmental controls in place prior to anyone ever being exposed to any version of the virus, nobody can at all claim they KNOW.

          • AutismDadd

            Sonya is the definition of asinine

          • Mike Stevens

            It’s easy to attribute SSPE cases to wild type measles virus. The neurologists investigate each case. They do lumbar punctures and send cerebrospinal fluid samples for specific measles RNA genotyping.
            This confirms the aetiology.

          • Reality022

            Yep, and here’s Babs Loe Fisher’s dishonest NVIC portal to the VAERS data:
            Note the lack of any disclaimers and no requirement to acknowledge that the user has read the disclaimers prior to accessing the data:

            It’s almost as if Babs and her NVIC want their moronic drones to misuse and misinterpret the VAERS data on purpose and then spread that disinformation…
            She wouldn’t be that dishonest and sleazy, would she?

          • Sonja Henie

            No. What Mike said. Are you the former Vacunous Autismo?

          • Sonja Henie

            “We also can not determine a direct correlation between Measles and SSPE because SSPE is so rare of a reaction. It also is that nobody has really done all that much work in isolating SSPE as being caused entirely independently by Measles, which is highly
            unlikely or that it is triggered by the Measles virus exclusively, which
            is also quite unlikely.”

            What a total lie. Here are three studies. If you Google SSPE, you’ll get a lot more.


          • Chris

            Citations needed.

          • SlammoFandango

            You do understand SSPE is listed in the product insert as a known side effect, yes?

            That side effect would not be listed in the product insert unless it was known that the product was in fact directly associated with SSPE….Therefore when you claim there has not been one medically documented death associated with the product, you’re all wet lady.

          • Mike Stevens

            “You do understand SSPE is listed in the product insert as a known side effect, yes?”

            Errrr…No it isn’t.
            It has been documented in those who have had vaccine, but CSF virology RNA analysis has shown that these cases were due to prior natural measles virus infection.

            PS: You need to learn that an “adverse event” is not the same thing as a “side effect”. The first is an observational descriptor (in the same way that someone falling and breaking an arm 2 weeks after a vaccine has this recorded as an adverse event), the second is a causal reaction.

          • Sonja Henie

            Not as a side effect, bub, as an adverse event “without regard to causality”. You do understand what that means, don’t you? No, I don’t think you do.

          • Chris

            Really? It seems that the “death” columns in set of tables for those diseases include non-zero entries. You might actually try checking the statistics before making such grand claims.

            Then there is SSPE which takes a long time to kill kids:

            Here is one pertinent paragraph: “There have been at least 16 cases of SSPE in California since 1998, which is likely an undercount because not all cases may be diagnosed nor are they required to be reported to the state, according to the Department of Public Health. There are several suspect cases that have not been confirmed.

            Sixteen is more than zero, and that is just one state. Now another paragraph from that article: “In the Bay Area, a 4-year-old boy is currently dying of SSPE, said Dr. Catherine Sonquist Forest, the medical director of the Stanford Health Care clinic in Los Altos.”

            SlammoFandango claimed without any evidence: “More people are dying right after receiving the MMR vaccine than are
            dying from the actual diseases the vaccine is designed to prevent.”

            Prove it. Do try providing something a little more truthful than your argument from blatant assertion which was kind of wrong, like PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the present MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella.

            By the way, the reason there are not as many deaths from measles, mumps and rubella as there were in the 1950s and 1960s is the vaccines prevented those diseases. And therefore prevented the disabilities and deaths from those diseases.

            “The truth is what it is…”

            And yet you failed to provide any. Do try to correct that oversight.

          • SlammoFandango

            Yes, we’ve all heard about the poor little boy in Northern California who is slowly dying of SSPE…It’s BIG, BIG, BIG news. And I must admit, in a statistical analysis, his case is quite pertinent because we know he was NOT vaccinated and therefore his SSPE was NOT triggered in any way by an adverse vaccine reaction.

            That’s right…

            HOWEVER, CDC lists SSPE as being known to also be caused from a severe adverse vaccine reaction…

            So, unless you have documentation of those other 16 cases occurring in patents who were infected during a wild outbreak, it could very well be you’re just drawing attention to more people who died as a result of severe adverse vaccine reactions.

            Yeah, check it out, SSPE is listed by CDC as well as the product insert.

            Other than that, I can not imagine big pharma not buying another ‘advertorial’ in the LA Times about one of those 16 getting SSPE if it could be confirmed that ANY contracted a wild strain of Measles….

            But nope, the press isn’t “all over it” when it comes to those other cases of SSPE precisely because it is it’s just the one poor little unvaccinated boy in Northern California that came down with SSPE from wild Measles.

          • Sonja Henie

            The rate of SSPE from the vaccine is far lower. In this study, none of the cases were vaccine strain measles.

            Dramatic decrease following the introduction of measles vaccine:

            No vaccine-virus SSPE.

            Nothing in the CDC Pink Book, ie, the “Bible” of CDC vaccinology about SSPE after vaccination.

            Package insert says “without regard to causality”.

          • Chris

            “HOWEVER, CDC lists SSPE
            as being known to also be caused from a severe adverse vaccine reaction…”

            Citation needed. Make sure they are more recent than these two papers:

            J Infect Dis. 2005 Nov 15;192(10):1686-93.
            Subacute sclerosing panencephalitis: more cases of this fatal disease are prevented by measles immunization than was previously recognized.

            Int J Epidemiol. 2007 Dec;36(6):1334-48.
            Review of the effect of measles vaccination on the epidemiology of SSPE.

            “So, unless you have documentation of those other 16 cases occurring in patents who were infected during a wild outbreak,….”

            LOL… oh, how cute that the person who made several outrageous claims without any kind of evidence is demanding documentation from someone who actually provided infinitely more than he did (hint: the inverse of zero actually approaches infinity).

          • SlammoFandango

            Like I said, read the insert.

            And yes, the current CDC postings are of course more recent than 2095 or 2007…

          • Chris

            Really? I see absolutely no links in your posting. Also inserts are CYA lawyer written screed and do not count as verifiable scientific evidence. Do try harder and actually post something of substance, and not just random blabbering.

          • SlammoFandango

            Dude…This from a guy who implied I don’t care about the death of a woman because of her ethnicity…I gotta say, that’s pretty low even when coming from you.

            So is it a technique of yours to attack personally after offering up such deflection? You know, make me feel my white guilt so I don’t point out descrepancies such as her not being diagnosed with measles while she was already in hospital? I mean, I guess if you can cause for me to be afraid of saying anything racist, I’ll also be afraid to point out that her prognosis was already grim and she was no doubt terminal anyway and that this was not at all her first brush with death due to her immune disorder or that measles were only discovered post mortem along with a whole gang of other diseases that also kill people with preexisting conditions like hers….

            You’re a big boy, you can look this stuff up. You don’t need me to cut and paste articles for you.

          • Chris

            Oooh, from the guy who said “nobody” has died of measles this century. By the way, she would have lived had some idiotic not wandered into the medical facility with measles. Your excuses were just a way to blame the victim.

            “You’re a big boy, you can look this stuff up.”

            No, you need to provide CDC links that still claim SSPE is caused by the measles vaccine. You made the claim, therefore you need to provide the links. Usually a clue that you are repeating stuff from anti-vax site is insisting that others look it up for you, because you really have not bothered to do it yourself.

            By the way, I have already checked (search terms: “measles sspe vaccine”), and I am really curious how far you have to dig to get the particular page you want. By the way, my first hit was dated 1982. There is really nothing recent. But you are welcome to prove me wrong.

            Perhaps I am able to give actual verifiable citations because I lack a Y-chromosome.

          • Hey now, that’s jumping to conclusions far too quickly! 😛 😉

            Are we sure it’s not to do with the presence of Barr Bodies?

          • Of course, you don’t need to cut and paste articles.

            The link will do just fine.

            As for “look it up yourself” – what logical fallacy did you just commit?

            Here’s a hint:


          • SlammoFandango

            Well “CYA Lawyer written screed” seems to qualify these companies for having all damage claims against them paid for by a government subsidized insurance fund. Nothing will ever be proven in court and so far over 3 Billion dollars have been paid out in settlements to people who have been killed or maimed so as to make sure nothing is EVER proven.

            But you’re right, all of this has a lot more to do with lawyering than doctoring.

          • Chris

            What a lame excuse. Provide the CDC page to support your claim.

            “Nothing will ever be proven in court and so far over 3 Billion dollars have been paid out in settlements to people who have been killed or maimed so as to make sure nothing is EVER proven.”

            Ah, now you get to show if you know basic math. This is the most recent NVICP stats from Aug. 1st. Now go the to bottom of the first table and get the “Grand Total” number of vaccine doses given during the stated time period (2,532,428,541). Then run your finger across that row and get the total number of compensated claims (2248).

            Now divide the number of vaccine doses given by the total number of compensated claims. Give us that number and tell us what it means. Also what is significant about the “1835” claims on that row (check the column title and then read the definition of that title below the table).

          • Sonja Henie

            That is so typical AV!

          • Compare seatbelts to deaths through the windshield, not heaven.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            Live virus vaccines do not contain a complete version of the virus.

            As an analogy, if I take the wheels off your car, the car may still be able to be turned on, but it is not going to serve its purpose to transport you.

          • AutismDadd


          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            It is the height of arrogance to believe that someone must be paid or a robot to disagree with you. And calling someone names does nothing to refute their point.

          • AutismDadd

            So you think. Only those parroting the same plopaganda will agree with you.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            Or it sounds like parroting to you because scientific consensus is pretty consistent on this topic.

            Also, using terms like “plopaganda”, not a great way to be taken seriously.

          • AutismDadd

            Consensus that vaccines which maim and kill a small number of children is best practice. Real nice.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            The small number of actual vaccine injuries is indeed a tragedy to those and their families.

            The far larger tragedy would be the number who would die without those vaccines. There are people allergic to penicillin, but we don’t see large campaigns against that. Any medical intervention is not without risk. However, we are currently experiencing the lowest childhood mortality rates in human existence, partially due to sanitation, but largely due to medical intervention and prevention.

          • AutismDadd

            Same old who cares about vaccine victims.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            I do not see where I said that. No one has said that vaccines are without risk. Those risks are far lower than many who do not know better would have us believe, but yes, any child dying is a tragedy. So I don’t understand why you seem to think more children dying is preferable to fewer.


          • AutismDadd

            You are claiming I said I prefer more children dying? How dare you imply or state that. You know what I said and can revisit it for clarification. But obviously you are locked in to the talking points and are so inflexible you make that automatic / programmed accusations like a good little minion.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            Well, you implied I said it wasn’t a big deal when any child died.

            But, you’re right, I should not have implied it, and I apologize for that.

            I do stand by my point that fewer deaths are preferable to more deaths, and it does get a bit frustrating when someone tries to tell you about yourself rather than discussing the merits of the argument. You do seem to be more worried about what I am (minion, shill, robot, whatever).

            No untimely deaths would be ideal, but we, unfortunately, are not at that point in medical science.


          • AutismDadd

            Then why is vaccine injury taboo as a subject?

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            It isn’t.

            Unfortunately, a great many people do not seem to understand what actual vaccine injuries are and are looking for scapegoats for other conditions with other causes.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            Which, in fairness, is completely understandable. It’s natural to look for reasons. It’s just necessary to apply critical thinking and understand what constitutes a good source of information and what doesn’t.

          • AutismDadd

            Au Contraire . This decades old debate is not about misunderstandings, its about belief and protection of vaccine ideology. And to claim it isn’t taboo is just a lazy response.

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            To claim it is taboo is trying to be a martyr. And, if you want to talk ideology, look no further than the anti-vaccine movement.

            Saying something is taboo or lazy doesn’t make it so. And saying that being pro-vaccine is about ideology is disingenuous. The scientific evidence is overwhelmingly on the side of vaccination. The reason people who are anti-vaccine feel that vaccine injury is a taboo subject is because most of them do not understand what a vaccine injury actually is, nor do they understand the differences between side effects, adverse reactions, and adverse events.

            No one is saying anything is 100%. No one could ever say anything is 100%. No one is saying there have never been vaccine injuries. However, there are a lot of people making assumptions about the causes of certain symptoms, conditions, or events without any evidence other than a gut feeling, which is not good enough. There’s nothing wrong with asking questions, but everything wrong with denying the evidence, once it is presented. Science changes as it gathers new information. Anti-science and pseudoscience throw out the evidence that does not support their preconceived notions.

          • AutismDadd

            All that to say YES vaccines do maim and kill?

          • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

            Incredibly rarely. Astronomically more rarely than the diseases they prevent.

            I’m really not sure what your point is, since I’m not arguing that they are completely without risk.

          • AutismDadd

            Point is they downplay and deny vaccine reactions. We hear the parroted talking points but don’t believe its true. Remember, those who promote vaccines are not going to spend much time highlighting their issues, especially when they act as if the NVICP is some sort of door prize for playing.

          • Sonja Henie

            Please post a case of this ever happening.

          • SlammoFandango

            It’s standard hospital protocol to warn the families of immunity-compromised patients that exposure to other recently vaccinated family members can pose undue risk. This is especially a risk in the case from those having received an attenuated live virus vaccine such as measles.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yo uobviously did not read the St. Jude’s website. You are lying.

          • SlammoFandango

            St. Jude changed the language on its warning to families just recently and you know that. You also know St. Jude was pressured to do so.

            However, I didn’t mention St. Jude specifically; only you did that.

            Many other hospitals still warn against those receiving the measles vaccine just as St. Jude still warns about other vaccines but no longer the MMR.

          • Mike Stevens

            We “know St Jude was pressured to do so”???
            How do we “know” this, or specifically, how do YOU know this.
            Can we see evidence for this extraordinary claim?

          • Sonja Henie

            St. Jude’s “warns” (love that word, makes it sound so ominous) about chickenpox vaccine IF the recipient of the vaccine develops a rash (1 in 25 or 4%) that subsequently turns into pustules, a small subset of this 4%. They “warn” that contacts of a rotavirus vaccine recipient should wash their hands carefully after changing diapers. This is what we should all be doing anyway. They “warn” that people who receive nasal flu vaccine, which apparently will be no one this year in the US, should avoid contact with SEVERELY immunocompromised people for a week following the vaccine.

          • For varicella, it’s “immunocomprised who has direct contact with a rash developed after varicella” irrc. In other words – this is a problem that is easily solved by preventing direct contact i.e. put a plaster over the injection site! Oh wait, @SlammoFandango… that happens already So really, the worst case scenario is “if there s a rash…keep a plaster on the site until the rash is all gone”. Boom! Problem solved.

            As for the flu thing….so my options are a)receive the killed vaccine, b)recieve the flumist (though not this year and thus shed a weakened virus and I’ll know exactly when to be careful or c)unknowingly spread a virulent virus around for quite some time.

          • Sonja Henie

            Believe me, if I had a kid who was *that* severely immunocompromised, I wouldn’t want to trust a band-aid. (What we call “plaster”. I would say the recipient could just wait till the rash was gone to visit.)

            With flu, if you’re talking about yourself, in general circulation at work, with friends, etc, yes b) would work if there were flu mist available this year. But for an immunucompromised person, and the site emphasizes this applies only to the “severely” immunocompromised, it’s best if you, the recipient, just wait a week to visit him/her.

            My daughter is a physical therapist in an out-patient clinic of a hospital. One year, they could only obtain flu mist, and the recommendation was for the PTs to take it as they didn’t have *severely* immunocompromised patients in the out-patient dept.

          • Oh, sure. I’m not suggesting you visit someone severely immunocomprised – I was just pointing out that for sort of “general social circulation” …a plaster/band-aid does the job.

            I thought b) made that point but I should have made that clearer. But yes, do not go visiting severely immunocomprised people for a week or until the rash is healed…whichever’s later.

          • Mike Stevens

            “It’s standard hospital protocol to warn the families of immunity-compromised patients that exposure to other recently vaccinated family members can pose undue risk.”

            No it is not hospital protocol. It used to be, but the guidelines removed this warning once it was clear that it posed no risk.

            See Johns Hopkins guidelines, for example:

          • SlammoFandango

            Clearly, that change was due to political pressure and you damn well know it. There was nothing wrong with warning the families of someone like a chemo patient that it was best to not have a toddler that had just been vaccinated with an attenuated live virus visiting the isolation wards…That was prudent advice which hospitals all over the country concurred with!

            Yeah, whatever, Big Pharma brought pressure to have the language changed after anti-vax groups publicized that warning but that never was bad advice to begin with.

            The language was changed in response to publicity surrounding the warning but not at all in response to any new study that was intentionally able prove compromised patients definitively can not contract a shed attenuated live virus as you yourself further imply.

          • Well, if it’s so clear that change was due to political pressure then you’ll be able to provide evidence, right?

          • SlammoFandango


            Yes, here is evidence that the language had previously been different and that a warning in fact DID advise families to not allow for visitation by those who had just received MMR or Chicken Pox etc.

            Note: I do not endorse the Westin Price foundation but only use this example as an example of what WP was republishing and publicizing and which then brought political pressure by Big Pharma for hospitals to change the language in warnings issued to families as recently as last year.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Proof that the wording has changed is not proof that it was changed under duress.

            It is much more likely that it was changed because the scientific evidence showed that the previous advice was out-dated.

            You still haven’t provided any evidence for your assertion that political pressure was brought to bear.

          • SlammoFandango

            Pah-leeze….Your asking for a supporting citation in documentation of political lobbying? Ha ha ha ha….oh. my!

            I story was run by an anti vaccine lobby. That story featured a cutaway showing actual handouts given to families. Some months later the story was picked up by more mainstream publications not necessarily associated with the antivax movement. That, for instance, is how I learned of the controversy. After that big media splash, which by the way called out Jude and Hopkins by name, they changed the language….Now Son, even a blind man knows when the sun is shining……The language was changed due to political pressure.

            Now if it is YOU want to cite a proactively held study that concluded between 2015 and 2016 and which unequivocally established proof that vaccine shedding can NOT pose a risk to immune compromised patients, I’d love to read it….

            Until then, nobody is so naive to not understand that the language was changed on political fav I r.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            That was a long-winded way of saying “Sorry, all I have is baseless conjecture”, wasn’t it?

          • You understand that even if every single person in the world knew it – we still wouldn’t be able to successfully sue without some evidence.

            SO….got any?

          • If it’s so obvious you can provide evidence.

          • That is a link to a claim. And there is a simple refutation of the shedding trope: If vaccines really did shed and caused diseases then places with highest rates of VPD should be somewhere like Mississippi with the highest vax rate (though admittedly there are consequences of not vaccinating) but in reality, it’s the exact opposite. Want to explain that one and provide some evidence?

          • SlammoFandango

            No, that isn’t a logical assumption on your part at all. The original warning wasn’t regarding any scenario such as the one you suggest.

            Comparing someone like an already-vaccinated school kid in Mississippi and someone else with a compromised immune system can’t be done. Likewise, a person with a compromised immune system isn’t even in the same position as an otherwise healthy person that is unvaccinated.

            In theory, the most significant thing that could happen to a perfectly healthy unvaccinated person when exposed to someone shedding an attenuated live virus, is the same as when a perfectly healthy is given the shot.

            However, just as we know immune compromised patients can’t get the same shot without maybe dying, being exposed to a person shedding an attenuated live virus might have the same disastrous results for the immune compromised should such person get the shot.

            THAT was the reason for the original warning. THAT warning was based on sound logic.

          • Okay, great. The wording has changed. However, that point was never in dispute.

            The claim that you need to provide evidence for is that the REASON the wording was changed was duress … have you got any evidence for that or would you like to withdraw the claim?

            Read. Think. Post.

          • That sounds like you think that’s a bad thing, VP.

            So taking this arguendo, the options are:

            a)The wild measles virus which causes typical measles in everyone.

            b)the vaccine that causes typical measles in some cases.

            Thank you for your support of b which reduces typical measles!

    • Mike Stevens

      “Funny, I just had a friend post a pic of her toddler with measles. Her Dr told her he got it from the vaccine.”

      Tell her doctor to write up the case in the science journals immediately!
      These cases are so vanishingly rare that any journal would be desperate to snap up a report of such a unique phenomenon.

    • Ray Fischer

      Ah. You heard from somebody who said that somebody else told her …

      Sorry but I’m not that gullible

      • Ahm7

        Lots of gullible parents who willingly offer their kids up to be sacrificed for the “Greater Good” are beginning to wake up.

        • Chris

          Oooh, look! It is unverifiable anecdotes posted on social media! We must believe it because no one has ever made up stuff to post on the internets!

          Really, seriously.. it must be true! It is really truly true… we are not gullible. It is on the internets, and Facebook does not allow lies on its pages. Though it does want to freely sell your information as it sends you ads that you cannot block.

          All hail the unbiased truthiness of Facebook and social media!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            And even if true – mildly sick for a couple of days?

            I was much, much sicker than that, and for a hell of a lot longer, when I caught the diseases as a kid.

            So much so, that I can still vividly recall the misery, more than half a century on.

            The pro-disease cult really does hate children if they think that avoiding a mild reaction to the vaccine – in other words, a sign that their immune system is actually responding and learning to destroy the real thing – is worth risking serious illness.

          • Chris

            “So much so, that I can still vividly recall the misery, more than half a century on.”

            Me too. I especially remember mumps. Which thoroughly confused my mother because it was the second time I had it. It was during the 1968 mumps epidemic, so there was enough of the virus floating around to overwhelm any “natural immunity.” Just another reason why I hate the “natural immunity is better argument.”

          • April

            I’ve never had chicken pox, mumps, or measles. Neither has my sister. My mom was smart enough to realize getting us vaccinated was very important. She came from a time when parents hosted chicken pox parties so all the children in the neighborhood could get them all at once and be ‘done’ with them. A time that people seem eager to bring back. Get your children vaccinated, people. Yes, vaccine injuries do occur but they are rare. Diseases aren’t as rare and can sometimes be fatal. Not everyone can develop a ‘natural immunity’ or are even old enough to. It’s not just your child you’re putting at risk but other’s children too.

    • Sonja Henie

      Atypical measles happened with the old killed measles vaccine. The solution to the problem is to give those folks the current vaccine.

      Source: CDC

    • Third hand anecdote. Worthless.

      Get your friend on here at the least so we can directly question her.

  • Ahm7

    And just curious, it’s as if they’re implying that children carry these diseases around inside them and the vaccine some how wards them off. It’s vaccine voodoo! Lol

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      How on Earth did you infer that?

      Oh. Another member of the pro-disease child haters cult.

      • Ahm7

        The controversy surrounding the dolls is around the fact that random dolls will be filled with samples of the viruses or bacteria” Ironic that’s it’s actually the vaccinated that are injected with the disease or bacteria.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          You did read the masthead, didn’t you?

        • Chris
        • Meaghen Couvillon Haynie

          Why in the world would anyone do that? That is not how any of this works.

        • Ygritte Snow

          deactivated viruses and bacteria you idiot

    • In the same way that drunk drivers carry accidents around inside them and sober driving somehow wards them off, yes. It’s temperance voodoo! Lol.

      Now, if we could return to posting things with some semblance of arguing against other people’s arguments rather than arguing with ourselves based on strawmen?

  • Christopher Hickie

    How do you know an anti-vaxxer is lying? A: their mouths are yapping or their fingers are pecking their phones/keyboards.

    • Jim Long

      Actually, I think most of them believe what they’re saying. It’s kind of sad, but it’s their new faith.

    • Neo

      How do you know pro vaxxers are lying?
      The will throw insults at you….lol for not conforming to their lack of any possible intelligence.

      • Chris

        Why should we believe you? Is it because you adopted a ‘nym from an old sci-fi movie?

        • Neo

          I’m not asking anyone to believe anything.
          Any intelligent person would question and research on their own instead of blindly following a corrupt system.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            You are assuming that people who lived through the bad old days, pre-modern vaccine schedule, are ‘blindly following a corrupt system’ because the conclusions we have drawn disagree with yours?

            We have the weight of evidence from decades of research around the world to so show that our conclusions – that vaccines are orders of magnitude safer than the diseases they protect us from – are reasonable, logical and scientific.

            What do you have?

          • SlammoFandango

            Okay, that isn’t actually 100% true in the case of all vaccine products. It also is a comon misconception of pro-mandatory folks that other countries do not allow for the choices you think should be eliminated.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Explain, with evidence, which ‘vaccine products’ (don’t you mean ‘vaccines’?) are more dangerous than the diseases they seek to prevent?

            Which ‘other countries’ are you talking about? Do you think that everyone commenting here is in the same country?

          • Sonja Henie

            The vast majority of countries use the same vaccines, with some tailoring for their specific circumstances. Japan gives Japanese Encephalitis, something not used routinely in most other countries because it’s not a problem for them. Just one example.

          • I want to make a joke where I spell it “encepharitis” but that’s a really lazy joke and I can’t think of a way to make it funny.

          • OT but I was looking for [long story] the Catholic Church Position Statement on vaccines but can’t seem to find it – any ideas?

          • Sonja Henie


            From the Vatican itself:
            “-there is a grave responsibility to use alternative vaccines and to make a conscientious objection with regard to those which have moral problems;

            -as regards the vaccines without an alternative, the need to contest so that others may be prepared must be reaffirmed, as should be the lawfulness of using the former in the meantime insomuch as is necessary in order to avoid a serious risk not only for one’s own children but also, and perhaps more specifically, for the health conditions of the population as a whole – especially for pregnant women;

            -the lawfulness of the use of these vaccines should not be misinterpreted as a declaration of the lawfulness of their production, marketing and use, but is to be understood as being a passive material cooperation and, in its mildest and remotest sense, also active, morally justified as an extrema ratio due to the
            necessity to provide for the good of one’s children and of the people who come in contact with the children (pregnant women);

            -such cooperation occurs in a context of moral coercion of the conscience of parents, who are forced to choose to act against their conscience or otherwise, to put the health of their children and of the population as a whole at risk. This is an unjust
            alternative choice, which must be eliminated as soon as possible.”

            That’s for vaccines grown in aborted fetal tissue.

            Vaccines in general:

            ” “I also want to clarify that nobody at the Catholic Medical Association is against vaccines,” Braaton added. “We think that vaccination is a moral good, that it’s good for patients, and that it has benefited society greatly. We have a responsibility as moral agents to protect the common good and to immunize ourselves and our children against communicable disease.” “

          • Thank you, Sonja!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Vaccine uptake is high in Europe even where vaccines aren’t mandatory, which is why 15 of the 29 countries in the VENICE network (the 27 EU countries, plus Iceland and Norway) don’t bother to mandate any. It isn’t necessary.


          • Sonja Henie

            I seriously disagree. Europe is where the measles outbreaks are, not the US. Also, there are no “mandatory” vaccines in the US, the way they are in several European countries, ie, no legal penalites for not vaccinating, as in France.

            1 June 2015 and 31 May 2016, 30 EU/EEA Member States reported 1 800
            cases of measles. Twenty-six Member States reported consistently
            throughout the 12-month period. During the last month, delays in
            reporting were observed for Croatia, Iceland, Lithuania and Spain.

            Italy reported 515 cases, accounting for 28% of the EU/EEA cases in
            the 12-month period. Most of the Italian cases (365) were reported from
            January to May 2016. Other countries with a high number of cases were
            Germany (362), Romania (243) and the United Kingdom (212). More than
            half of the cases in the EU/EEA (58%) were reported during the first
            five months of 2016.

            Several countries, most notably Belgium,
            France, Germany, Italy, Romania and the United Kingdom reported an
            increase in the number of cases since the start of the year, a
            development that is compatible with measles seasonality, which in
            temperate climates peaks in late winter/early spring. – See
            more at:

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Thank you! That is very interesting, because apart from the UK, where MMR uptake plummeted after Wakefield’s fraudulent and irresponsible publication, vaccine uptake in the EU is generally above the 95% threshold needed for herd immunity. I think that I might have found why we seem to differ – there are different definitions of the word ‘European’.

            Firstly, the area covered in the your links is considerably wider than the area covered in mine, so that might be where some of the discrepancy lies. (Croatia isn’t in the EU, for example). Secondly, mine was older than yours. Sorry!

            I found this:


            It breaks down where the outbreaks are mainly occurring, and covers a wider area than the link in my last comment, which only covered the EU, Iceland and Norway.

            This one covers the EU (Austria, Belgium, Bulgaria, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Denmark, Estonia, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Ireland, Italy, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malta, the Netherlands, Portugal, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden, and the United Kingdom), 15 immediate geographically- and culturally-related nearby countries or territories, (Albania, Belarus, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, Gibraltar, Iceland, Macedonia (FYRM), Monaco, Moldova, Norway, Russia, Serbia, Switzerland, Turkey and Ukraine), and Israel.

            From this, the outbreaks seem to have been mostly in Roma, Traveller immigrant and anthroposophic communities, all of which have different challenges when it comes to vaccines; for example, over two-thirds of the world’s Steiner schools (also known as Waldorf schools) are in Europe and their philosophy strongly discourages vaccination.


          • Sonja Henie

            According to the article I posted, the largest numbers of cases were in three western European countries, Italy, Germany and the UK and also Romania, with Italy alone contributing 28% of the cases. In fact the three western European countries comprised over half the cases (1089 out of 1800). My numbers are current as of May 31, 2016. I will point out your link’s numbers are from 2005-2009.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Italy (60.9m), Germany (81.5m) and the UK (65.1m) are three of the four most populous countries (the other being France at 66.4m), so I would expect the greatest number of cases in those countries. Romania is at number 7 (out of 27) at 19.8m and has dreadful problems with poverty.

            Just as in the USA, the majority of cases are in the unvaccinated (many of whom were to young to have been given the MMR yet). This goes to show that it is extremely important to get vaccines into those populations who have either traditionally shunned them, or slip through the routine healthcare net.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Oh, and I should point out that there is free movement of people throughout the EU/EEA, just as there is in the USA. Many people live in one country and work in another. An outbreak of disease in one country can often be traced to another, often one that is outside Europe altogether (often from an African country, or India).

            The total population of Europe is at least twice that of the USA, and the population density, at 116 people per km², is three and a half times that of the USA (33 people per km²). Disease can spread that much more easily.

          • Sonja Henie

            All the more reason to vaccinate. The vaccination levels are too low to eliminate outbreaks.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Yep. Definitely.

            People mostly do vaccinate, and without mandates being necessary. The problem lies with pockets of low vaccination in particular communities. Outbreaks can occur in those communities, often brought in by someone returning from abroad, and spread to non-immune people in the wider community, e.g. those too young or ill to have been vaccinated, or too sick to have ongoing immunity.

            It is a serious problem, but not one in which mandates will necessarily improve vaccine uptake in the target groups. Telling people whose children are already not attending state schools that they will have to be vaccinated in order to attend, for instance, is meaningless.

            Financial penalties might persuade a few, but I’m afraid that it will more likely lead to a greater distrust of authority than these people have already.

            Education is important, but how do we get it to people who already live on the margins of society? Threaten a Roma or Traveller community with compulsory vaccination, and they’ll up sticks and move to another country. And forget a Europe-wide solution. People are already getting annoyed at the amount of power the EU wields over individual countries (cf. ‘Brexit’), and it would not be acceptable to most countries.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            This population density map of Europe helps explain why large outbreaks happen where they do:


            Edited to add: the pale bits, not surprisingly, are where the mountains are.

          • Tigger_the_Wing
          • Sonja Henie

            You know Tigger, methinks you doth protest too much! I did not initiate this conversation, if you’ll recall. You wanted to get in some jab at “mandatory” vaccine laws.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Not exactly. I’m actually in favour of mandates. I was responding to SF’s comment “It also is a comon misconception of pro-mandatory folks that other countries do not allow for the choices you think should be eliminated.

            Living in one of those ‘other countries’ I was a little surprised. I know that some European countries mandate some vaccines (mine doesn’t – yet. It’s a current discussion). It certainly isn’t universal that countries don’t have mandates.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Anyway, it’s tomorrow here already – I’m off to sleep. So if you comment and don’t get a reply for several hours, don’t worry – I’m not ignoring you!

            Thanks for the interesting information. I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.

          • Sonja Henie

            Good night! I’ve enjoyed it too, learned a lot.

          • Sonja Henie

            You know, I have no doubts about that. This started out with me disagreeing with this statement: “Vaccine uptake is high in Europe even where vaccines aren’t mandatory” It’s obviously NOT high enough to keep measles outbreaks from happening. California’s population is about half that of Germany, yet even with the Disney outbreak, California did not have 180 cases. In fact, 110 Californians got measles from that episode. The pockets of undervaccination are a problem here in the US as well, which is why when anti-vaxers say that California’s vaccine rate is high overall, why bother with a mandate, they are are playing a little fast and loose with the facts. There are schools in Cali with UZ rates under 50%.

            There are also no mandatory vaccines in the US in the sense of legal sanctions on parents for not vaccinating their kids.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Some countries in Europe do have legal sanctions for parents (France, for instance). Other countries are considering them, precisely because of the current situation. I’m in favour of them, but countries where the uptake in most of the population is above herd immunity level don’t want to bring in country-wide laws because of a few recalcitrant people. I believe that if most people are vaccinating without sanctions, then bringing in sanctions won’t affect them in the slightest, but could be a useful tool to catch the deliberately unvaccinated.

            By the way, Germany has 226 people per km², California has 97.

            I think it is very hard for USAians to visualise just how crowded most of Europe actually is. 🙂

          • Sonja Henie

            Many of us have been there. And measles is not really a disease of “high density”. Prior to the vaccine, when the population of the US was about half of what it is now, virtually everyone got measles by age 18.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            Very true. When no-one was vaccinated, anyone who hadn’t previously been infected was a potential host for the virus, enabling it to spread quickly through the population.

            But as recent outbreaks have shown, where there are pockets of no vaccination, the disease spreads just as quickly through the unvaccinated. Where there is high vaccine coverage, it is harder for the virus to spread – especially in places where the unvaccinated keep themselves in separate communities and rarely encounter anyone who might be immuno-suppressed or not yet vaccinated.

            However, since the measles virus can survive outside a human host for up to two hours, the more people there are moving through a space where an infectious person has been, the greater likelihood there is of the virus encountering a host – which is why the outbreaks in the USA have been in places like Disneyland where there were a lot of pedestrians in a small area, many of them too young to have been fully vaccinated.

            Measles is no longer endemic in either Europe or the USA.

            2014 was an interesting year for the large number of measles cases being brought in from abroad, both for the USA and Europe.



            What is particularly interesting is that, of the people whose vaccination status prior to infection was known, over 80% were unvaccinated. Given that in both places vaccination rates are over 95%, this shows how incredibly effective vaccination actually is.

          • AutismDadd

            No one but shills ask that. The topic is vaccine safety. Your strawman is nonsense.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            So you fail to understand the first question, which is about vaccine safety.

            What ‘strawman’? Do you fail to understand that concept, too?

          • AutismDadd

            No, its you who are side stepping it all to post your plopaganda

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            And your accusations are nonsense. Do try to read.

          • Sonja Henie

            That’s asking a lot of him.

          • AutismDadd

            Read what?

          • Please prove that everyone who has ever asked that is a shill.

            Remember – you claimed that ONLY shills ask that so if I can show you an example of one person who has not proven to be a shill then either a)you show me evidence or b)you are wrong.

          • AutismDadd

            Wow aren’t you the hard hitting investigator?

          • Nope. Your claim, your burden of proof.

          • AutismDadd

            Well we know how this ends don’t we….next!

          • How about changing the pattern and providing evidence? Got any?

          • AutismDadd

            Time’s a wasting

          • AutismDadd

            What’s the topic again? I dozed off reading some of your duller than dull replies

          • Neo

            I wonder who wrote the so called evidence.
            Oh wait!!

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I wonder who wrote the so called evidence.

            Nobody? Because there isn’t any?

            After all, I was asking for evidence for the claim that the vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases they seek to prevent; a claim that is the basis of the pro-disease child haters cult. A claim that has never been backed with evidence, only outraged ‘feelings’.

            You might feel like speshul sneuxflaques, but all the evidence so far is on the side of modern scientific medicine.

            Produce the evidence, and then we will be able to study it.

          • Neo

            Come on Tiger….I thought you had more brains than that.
            Look around you.
            See all the children dying of childhood cancers, diabetes and SIDS…not to mention Autism and all these chronic illnesses!!
            You don’t need to be virologist or a doctor or a scientist to see the damage vaccines have created.
            You just need not be blinded by the lies from the industry.
            Common sense really.

          • Mike Stevens

            “See all the children dying of childhood cancers, diabetes and SIDS”

            And your evidence that vaccines have caused this would be….?
            Why isn’t it WiFi, or BigMacs?

            PS: As a matter of fact SIDS deaths are steadily declining, and childhood cancer deaths, and diabetes deaths in those under 19 have been declining steadily for 20 years now.
            I guess we can thank vaccines for that then?

          • Neo

            Lmao…Yeah ok, your sources are credible.
            Nuff said.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            So, no evidence then.

            Just ‘feelings’.

            Sigh. Why are you being contrary here? You have nothing to support any of your assertions, do you?

            ‘Look around you.’ Really? When I look around me I see all the benefits of living in a society which has embraced modern scientific medicine. Thanks to vaccines, surgery and medication I’m alive to see my grandchildren growing up, and they not only still have grandparents, but also great-grandparents, and in a few years I could be a great-grandparent myself and those babies could have great-great grandparents still alive and thriving. No-one I know with diabetes is dying. No-one is getting VPDs. The deaths from SIDS have fallen with greater protection from disease. And so what if many of us are autistic? That is just a different way of experiencing the world, no worse, no better. Autistic people have always been around you – they just didn’t have a label until the middle of the last century or later.

            Look around you.

            That is what you sound like.

          • Neo

            Yes medical science is so fabulous we have the sickest generation of children and people.
            Tell me again how many billions is spent on health care a year?
            Ah yes… to love medical advancement.
            I know I know everything is a vaccine coincidence.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I don’t know – how many billions are spent in a country where medicine is a for-profit enterprise?

            Here we spend 8.9% of GDP on healthcare (6% public, 2.9% private); in the USA it’s 16.9% (8% public, 8.9% private).

            And by what measure are today’s people the sickest? Are you counting people who are now surviving with genetic and other disorders which would have been fatal less than a century ago, before modern science developed treatments to keep us alive? Or are you so nasty that you think that dead is better than sick?

          • Neo

            Oh I see……so what you are saying is that big Pharma is a buisness who profits from keeping people sick and feeds them medications instead of curing them from what they (Pharma) created.
            Actually it’s people like you that are nasty by wanting children injured, dead and sick through forced vaccines to keep that profit margin rolling.
            By your comment you.just acknowledged it’s all about the buisness.
            That says it all.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            “so what you are saying is that big Pharma is a buisness who profits from keeping people sick and feeds them medications instead of curing them from what they (Pharma) created”

            No, that is what you (and your ilk) are saying.

            Those conditions which can be cured, are routinely cured. (I met a cancer survivor only this evening; surgery, chemotherapy and radiotherapy saved their life). No-one is kept sick with a curable disease!

            Once upon a time, before modern scientific medicine, no conditions could be cured.

            Despite huge advances in medicine, both pharmaceutical and surgical, plus advances in prostheses, electronics and mechanics, some conditions still cannot yet be cured. But, thanks to those advances, we can now live with them instead of dying from them.

            You have failed to demonstrate (by providing evidence) that vaccines have caused anyone to be injured, die or become chronically sick. On the contrary, people with chronic conditions who would have died in childhood from VPDs are now surviving into adulthood thanks to the whole, you know, not dying bit; and really appreciate the medications that enable them to have happy, fulfilled lives.

            Back in the last century, there was a lovely, kind and beautiful woman, a talented pianist, who caught TB and died.

            She didn’t live long enough to see her own children grow to adulthood.

            A few years after she died, her eldest son also caught TB; but, just before it killed him, too, a new antibiotic was discovered; it was administered to him, saving his life.

            Of course, saving his life meant that he lived long enough not only to reach adulthood, but to marry and have four children of his own. And those children didn’t even catch TB, because they were vaccinated against it as infants. He got to watch those four children grow up, and have children in their turn. And not only did he live long enough to meet his thirteen grandchildren, he has lived long enough for them to grow up and have children…

            He has seven great-grandchildren, two of whom are older than he was when his mother died – and he is still going strong.

            When his eldest daughter left school, she went to work for a pharmaceutical company, helping to research heart drugs which would lower blood pressure without raising heart rate, which would necessitate taking more drugs to lower the heart rate (without raising the blood pressure). Drugs which were eventually created.

            She is now living with heart conditions that would have been fatal without those very drugs.

            Yes, pharmaceutical companies do very well out of people with incurable genetic or infectious conditions, but people do very well out of being still alive and functioning.

          • What is this stuff for? Critical thinking resources?

          • Neo

            So what your saying is that it is ok for 4 out of 400 elementary students to regress from vaccines!
            I’m glad you think so!!

          • Strawman fallacy. Try again.

            75% of the ASD rate is non-regressive. There is no epidemic since adults have almost the same figure.

            And there’s no difference in ASD rates when you look for it.

          • SlammoFandango

            Yeah, they don’t want to think about how they never really wanted to think and that that’s why they just blindly follow. Thinking makes them mean.

          • Is there a particular lab you recommend, Neo?

      • Abby: 1+1 = 2, you £$)%(“%)*)*%*)!!!!

        Bob: Please would you be so gracious as to accept that 1+1 = 2?

        Charlie: 1+1 = 3, you “*££)$*$)”((()&$^%”(!!!!!

        David: Please would you be so gracious as to accept that 1+1 = 3?

        What does 1+1 = in all of the cases, Neo?

    • AutismDadd

      Grow up

    • AutismDadd

      How do you know a pro-vac is thinking? The aroma!

    • Ron Roy

      You have it wrong. Those are PRO- vaxxers and they’re also frothing at the mouth thinking about all the babies who will suffer irreparable harm from vaccines.

    • Ron Roy

      How do you know a pro-vaxxer is lying? A: their mouths are yapping or their fingers are pecking their phones/keyboards and their salivating at the thought of all the people that are harmed by vaccines.

  • Sonji Burkhart

    This is SATIRE, full is read the comments that think this is for real

  • Sonji Burkhart

    This is satire you idiots

    • Chris

      Yes, we noticed. The very first comment was satirical. My most recent comment was sarcastic. It is a game of wit, come join us.

      Unless you think there really are “Iron Lung Barbies.”

      • Sonji Burkhart

        Don’t assume what I mean when I post something. You don’t even know the story.

        • Chris

          And I should care about what you mean because….?

          • Sonji Burkhart

            Because She was a friend of mine!!! There was NO racing. The guy was in the wrong lane. He hit her so hard her head was almost Decapitated. All she was doing was sitting at the stop light. The guy was drunk out of control. He is in ICU, but won’t make it. Like I said don’t assume. ASSume + ASS. Maybe you should know the whole story before you post an assumption. And you should care because YOU are spreading a lie.

          • Chris

            Barbie? You do know that Barbie is a small doll that was introduced almost fifty years ago, it is even says so in the article. It is made of plastic, millions were mass produced and it is not alive. Perhaps you should communicate your issues to someone else, and not strangers on the internet.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            I’m very sorry about your friend, but what on Earth has that to do with anything on this thread?

            I have a feeling that you have cross-posted from somewhere else, where you are/have been having an argument with someone else…

    • S.D.

      Um, people really didn’t know that?

      • Icabod

        Maybe the antivaxxers. They seem to believe everything on the Internet.

        • Sonja Henie

          Unless it comes from the CDC or other reliable source.

          • AutismDadd

            CDC is biased not reliable

          • Learnt to count from 0 to 100 yet?

          • David

            Cdc is not reliable but I am sure you think mercolas for profit website is reliable

          • AutismDadd

            Oh have I been shilling for Mercola?

          • Well… I seem to recall you saying once that an average of 8 comments of nonsense a day was proof of shillhood.

            Since you posted an average of 24 times a day at that time…you clearly have been shilling at least once by your own argument.

          • AutismDadd

            Your recall is suspect…that means WRONG

          • Neo

            CDC is bought!

          • Lucky we have every other country in the world, then.

        • Neo

          No….it’s the brain damaged pro vaxxers who are so consumed with anger from the vaccines they received……that they are blaming intelligent people and will stoop to any level imaginable.
          Just the time and effort that was put in this post clearly indicates how challenged this person is in the head!!

          • Rinnley Rue

            So vaccines make people angry as well as autistic? Your emotions are valid but their’s are not? Easy to feel righteous when you’ve dismissed the feelings and congnitive ability of anyone who disagrees with you. Stooping to any level indeed.

          • Neo

            Ummm….I didn’t write the article.
            I wouldn’t bring myself that low to criticise a person who is mentally challenged or damaged as this writer of the article.

          • Rinnley Rue

            I’m sorry were you being sarcastic in your comment? If so it didn’t come across. If you were quoting someone you forgot punctuation. No one thinks you wrote the article, I never said anything to suggest you did. You said pro-vaxxers were angry and brain-damaged. You said “Just the time and effort that was put in this post clearly indicates how challenged this person is in the head!!” How then am I to understand you were not criticizing anyone’s intelligence? Your last sentence is difficult to understand, you imply that the writer is mentally challenged, although they are likely not, as a means of discrediting them whilst you simultaneously claim you wouldn’t bring yourself that low. I guess that passes for clever irony in your world, others might find it tasteless. You know, like the many people with intellectual disabilities you would never criticize.

          • Hired the independent scientists yet?

      • Sonji Burkhart

        Um, I was saying it to them. I think all satire should be able as such. So don’t type smart ass remarks till you know the story. ASSumption = Ass.

    • SlammoFandango

      Nope, it’s propoganda posing as satire.

      • Tigger_the_Wing

        What is ‘propoganda’?

      • Sonji Burkhart

        OK, I’ll go along with that

  • Liz Windham

    I knew a girl in my grade school who had polio. She had to use crutches and leg braces her entire life.

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      That is something else that young people today have no idea about – it wasn’t just dying that made people so afraid of those diseases when we were young, it was being physically or mentally disabled, losing hearing or sight…

    • Icabod

      During kindergarten, the polio vaccine became available. We lined up to get the shot. No parent protested, opted out or camplained. Everybody knew the danger. Sadly, the following year my kindergarten teacher contacted polio.

    • SlammoFandango

      Well, I suspect you really didn’t know the real reason the little girl from grade school was fitted with braces and crutches. Most likely, somebody just said that was why and then you believed it and you’re no less gullible to this day.

      Polio hasn’t all all been endemic to the US in almost 40 years and 50 years ago, it was so rare that it was virtually unheard of. The last 150 or so cases (I doubt your little school mate was one) were caused by faulty vaccine formulas NOT the wild virus.

      We don’t now and never will again see wild polio in the US, despite lower rates of vaccination, because we no longer allow for raw sewage to be dumped into waterways which sadly was a common practice as late as the 1970s.

      • Chris

        “Polio hasn’t all all been endemic to the US in almost 40 years and 50 years ago…”

        Funny how that is just about when the vaccine came out.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          Funny, that, isn’t it? My parents and my husband’s parents were delighted that the vaccine came out in time to protect us and our siblings. We both knew older kids with crutches and leg braces, or withered arms, at school.

      • HeidiKnox

        The last cases of naturally occurring paralytic polio in the United States were in 1979, when an outbreak occurred among the Amish in several Midwestern states. From 1980 through 1999, there were 162 confirmed cases of paralytic polio cases reported. Of the 162 cases, eight cases were acquired outside the United States and imported. The last imported case caused by wild poliovirus into the United States was reported in 1993.

        • SlammoFandango

          Yes and by 1993, it would have been virtually impossible for a non vaccinated person to find a non chemically treated public latrine to host the imported virus or for a toilet such a person might use to poor into a stream or lake somebody might swim in.

          I didn’t say the vaccine wasn’t an integral part of a comprehensive effort to rid us from Polio; I just pointed out that unvaccinated people aren’t getting it any more.

          • Chris

            “I didn’t say the vaccine wasn’t an integral part of a comprehensive effort to rid us from Polio; I just pointed out that unvaccinated people aren’t getting it any more.”

            Except there still these things called “airplanes.” Perhaps you have seen this buses with wings flying overhead. They bring people back and forth from mall over this planet, and sometimes they are sick. Also polio can be transmitted through the air.

            The only way to keep from vaccinating for polio or any other disease that still exists is to either eradicate that (effort is still ongoing, with women administering the vaccine being shot down by ideological idiots) or blocking our borders. So no ship, air, train, bus, or foot travel across the borders of this county.

            Choose one:

            Continue to hold back polio with the IPV with hopes if it going the way of smallpox (as brave women who vaccinate in other countries are targets for murderous morons).


            Build a hundred foot all along the border of the USA, including all coastlines and keep everyone out and the rest of us in for ever and ever. Say goodbye to going to the beach.

          • Sonja Henie

            You are obviously unfamiliar with people living “off the grid” here in the US. There was an outbreak of VAPP in an Amish community in Minnesota in 2005. It is unknown where the virus came from. Some Amish vaccinate, some don’t. Stranger things have happened. We need to keep vaccinating.


      • Amy Zucker Morgenstern

        The 1952 polio epidemic was devastating. Three years later, the Salk vaccine became available and we haven’t had a major outbreak since; everyone I know who survived polio is considerably older than I am (I was born in 1968). They all suffer from post-polio syndrome.

        In India, however, in 1988, I saw a young girl with wasted limbs. I guess I hadn’t paid proper attention to the painting “Christina’s World,” because I asked one of my teachers there (also from the U.S., and born around the end of WWII) what was wrong with her. He gave me a “What planet are you from?” look and said, “Polio.” I had never seen anyone younger than I was with this affliction. Our country could look the same if we would just stop using the polio vaccine.

        • Classic stuff from History Of Vaccines, straight out of the CDC’s “How to Abuse Statistics” playbook.

          Here is a different perspective:

          • As I said, please show me the chart that proves the DISEASE dropped PRIOR to the anti-vaccines without mentioning DEATHS. Why is your answer a mortality (i.e. DEATH) graph? Show me the incidence graph. What I asked for is a morbidity/incidence chart.

            The first invention for Diphtheria is an ANTItoxin.

          • Chris

            Why am I not surprised that the silly man who did not know what “ad hominem” means, also does not know the very significant difference between “mortality” and “morbidity”?

    • Ron Roy

      Probably got it from the vaccine.

  • Jim Long

    Instead of the quote “I’m picking up Polio Barbie today on the way home from work,” you might try one of these alternatives to best fit the community:
    a. “…on the way home from yoga.”
    b. “…on the way home from home school field trip.”
    c. “…on the way home from my Midday Moms Club social.”


    • Sonja Henie

      Hey, I just got back from yoga class! It’s mostly a bunch of old ladies, like me. One old man today. (But I know what you mean.)

      • AutismDadd

        Isn’t YOGA like alternative medicine? What other secrets do you hide?

        • Depends. Some forms are exercise, some forms are mediation, some forms are alternative exercise.

          Have you learnt to count from 0 to 100 yet?

          • Michael McCarthy

            “Have you learnt to count from 0 to 100 yet?”
            He has trouble after getting to 20 (most men should be able to count to 21).

        • Sonja Henie

          Not if you’re just going for fun.

          • Mike Stevens

            That whistling noise was the sound of the point missing Autismdudd by the proverbial mile.

          • Isn’t it more like the proverbial league at this point?

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            A league is roughly 3 to 6 miles.


            The nautical league is 3 miles. The Romans defined it as. The comfortable marching distance in one hour. Roughly 2.5 miles.

            These are still the rough numbers in use by the army.

          • AutismDadd

            If you mean the bbrraaatt bbrraaatt you hear whenever you post, its your brainfart Mike. Hope that helps

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            A Norwegian mile……

          • Sonja Henie

            I thought they used metric!

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            The old timers defined a mile as 6 imperial miles….

            This may be anecdotal as it was a conversation overheard when I was a kid….

          • Sonja Henie

            Come to think of it, I’ve heard something like that before, too!

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            It has been standardized as 10 km or 6.2 miles

          • JoeFarmer

            A Norwegian mile is 36,000 feet or about 7 statute miles…

          • VikingAPRNCNP

            Thanks for finding that bit of information….

          • AutismDadd

            But its health giving…that’s criminal isn’t it?

          • Sonja Henie

            Health giving? I told you, I do it for fun! My teacher would be appalled at your thinking.

          • AutismDadd

            I’m calling the FDA death Squad. We can’t promote health or safety in the USA

          • In the same way that all exercise is, sure.

          • AutismDadd

            Well call the FDA death squad to put a stop to it.

          • Good luck with that. Yoga is neither a food nor a drug.

  • Jennifer Minard

    This can’t be real.
    Next Mattel can come out with physically abused barbie, rape victim barbie anorexic barbie and mentally ill Barbie since they’ve apparently turned into a twisted psychopathic toy company.
    Go fuck yourself Mattel you’re a bunch of sadists.

    • Chris

      Please read the three words under the main title at the top of this page. Give us the definition of the third word.

    • Chris

      Please read the three words under the main title at the top of this page. Give us the definition of the third word (hint: if you read an article that seems outlandish, look for this word).

  • Jennifer Minard

    Thankfully this is satire or they would have a huge lawsuit on their hands.

  • Neo

    Maybe there should be a SIDS barbie after a vaccine or wait …how about a barbie dying from cancer after a vaccine, or how about a diabetic barbie with a needle for insulin from a vaccine, you know since it’s one of the first reactions on the MMR list of the pancreas being destroyed.
    There could be a whole slue of them

    • Chris

      Citation needed.

      The SIDS bit is a particularly vicious bit of fiction. The claim caused more kids to die, from :

      An antivaccine movement developed in Japan as a consequence of increasing numbers of adverse reactions to whole-cell pertussis vaccines in the mid-1970s. After two infants died within 24 h of the vaccination from 1974 to 1975, the Japanese government temporarily suspended vaccinations. Subsequently, the public and the government witnessed the re-emergence of whooping cough, with 41 deaths in 1979. This series of unfortunate events revealed to the public that the vaccine had, in fact, been beneficial.

      Citations look like this:
      Pediatrics. 2001 Dec;108(6):E112
      Childhood vaccinations, vaccination timing, and risk of type 1 diabetes mellitus.

      • Just because someone provides a “citation” doesn’t mean they have proven their argument. Case in point…here’s a citation for a study involving clinical trials for Infanrix vaccine in Italy…and from this one would assume that the vaccine is perfectly safe.

        Combined hexavalent diphtheria-tetanus-acellular pertussis-hepatitis B-inactivated poliovirus-Haemophilus influenzae type B vaccine; Infanrix™ hexa: twelve years of experience in Italy.

        But their analysis is problematic to say the least, especially when looking at infant mortality during the trial period. They use a very convoluted method to display and analyze the timing of infant deaths which obfuscate a very clear correlation between receipt of vaccination and day of death after vaccination. What is striking here is that there is also a similar, albeit smaller, effect for the second dose of vaccine. This is extremely strong evidence for a link between this vaccine and SIDS.

        Dr. Puleyil’s Analysis

        Raw data from the analysis:

        Also, just because the IOM holds a “vaccine safety” hearing on vaccines and SIDS and concludes that there is no relationship, this does not mean there is no relationship.

        My Take on the 2002 IOM Vaccine Safety Hearing on SIDS
        David Foster

        • Chris

          “… twelve years of experience in Italy.
… ”

          Anti-vaccine doctor has letter published in medical journal, wows colleagues

          Yeah, that citation was a just a comment, not a peer reviewed better. Hilarious. Even better, that guy has many of those “publications” which are essentially letters to the editors.

          • Interesting, yet another snarky comment from the pseudo-skeptics at “TheSciencePost”. No surprise that you do not wish to discuss the content of Dr. Puleyil’s criticism of this clinical trial. Why would that be? Can you find anything wrong with his anlaysis, and the graphic he produced? Because if you can’t…it’s kinda self-explanatory and quite damning.

          • Chris

            What the snark so good was that your PubMed link was to his comment on a paper! That is what makes it so funny.

            Also I know there is no point discussing anything about that guy’s opinion because you will ignore that is was worthless dreck on VAERS, just like you did several months ago. Seriously, all you do is provide fodder for this satirical blog.

          • My pubmed link was to his comment, yes, and if you scroll up just a little bit you’ll see the peer-reviewed journal article discussing the clinical trial.

            You still avoid any meaningful discussion. You are correct that there really is no point in discussing this, but only because you won’t be able to make any meaningful contribution. And you certainly will not be able to dispute Dr. Puleyil’s analysis.

          • Chris

            Reading comprehension eludes you.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            Hey….it is my old buddie Davey….

            How sad there is still no improvement in the quality of your postings.

            1. Since the topic is statistics an honest person would want analysis of the data by statisticians….

            2. You give us a link to Puleyil…an anti-vacc kook whose arguments
            are bereft of a coherent thought—but he fooled you!

            3. YOUR LINK has comments from a number of actual scientists that point out Puleyil’s many factual, conceptual, and analytical errors—but you were unable or unwilling to read the words correctly.

            4. Thanks for humiliating the anti-vaccs with the link from vaccinationnews…an entirely bogus commentary that insults the intelligence of anyone that can read a graph or read the definition of infant mortality, etc, etc.

            Thanks again for demonstrating that no one with a middle-school education could honestly believe the anti-vaccs. Key word


          • As usual, so many words which don’t actually say anything. You are a ditto-head, you just point to what others say and then say “See?”. Can you say anything that shows that you actually understand the issues being discussed? And by the way, Dr. Puleyil is an “actual scientist”, he is the Director of Pediatrics at his hospital of residence:

          • White_and_Nerdy

            1. Puleyil is NOT a scientist. Yes you are exactly that clueless!

          • White_and_Nerdy


            Just as I was sure you won’t post the definition scientist.

            Just as I was sure you would ignore you other errors here.


          • Puleyil has over 160 publications, many of them research papers on topics very relevant to this discussion.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            1. Publications don’t make a person a scientist.

            2. Too bad you don’t care enough to even try and be truthful say by reading the definition.

            3. Probably doesn’t matter since you are still too clueless to even notice that Puliyel could even read the names of the vaccines correctly much less make a rational argument.


          • White_and_Nerdy

            2. I was clear.

            Your link demonstrates that Puleyil is not just wrong but staggeringly incompetent.

            As you usual you can’t read the words, or read a graph, or think clearly about data… Or care about the facts.


          • White_and_Nerdy

            for anyone interested in the facts about the IOM SIDS/vaccine report, here it is:



          • White_and_Nerdy


            Enter facts and exit Davey.

            It is exactly like you are allergic to the truth….but you do a public service in continuing to
            publically humiliate the anti-vaccs.

            Keep up the good work!


        • Proponent

          Oh, look.. Davey tried this crap before on Skeptical Raptor. First post to the discussion thread by our resident asshat, Davey..

          David Foster .. Justthefacts • 6 months ago

          “If you are conducting a safety trial and trying to determine whether a vaccine increases the chances of SIDS, there is simply no excuse for presenting the data like this, and ignoring evidence like this. It is
          painful obvious that the authors’ intent was to hide this relationship.”

          … last reply from Justhefacts just prior to Davey tucking his tail and scampering back into his hole.

          Justthefacts .. David Foster • 6 months ago

          “You point was the validity Dr. Puleyil’s Analysis based on the GSK
          report. My point was that it was based on bad, raw data. You just agreed with me. If you want to say that some grand conspiracy exists between the CDC, the French agencies, Spanish agencies, etc. then do so, but that means that Dr. Puleyil’s Analysis is based on data you don’t support.
          If the GSK data is skewed, then Dr. Puleyil’s Analysis is bull. I have made my point based on your paranoia concerning the GKS report.
          The actual analysis, based on the actual data is in the GSK report found IN the GSK report shows conclusively that SIDS is not caused by Infantrix. If you disagree with the data, then don’t use the data to try to make a different point. Moreover, Dr. Puleyil’s Analysis was dissected by the courts and dismissed as bunk so its not just my opinion, it’s the opinion of countless experts and judges worldwide.
          So putting your distraction points to the side, we are back to where we started, where you have………nothing.”

          … …

          Rule #1 in online discussion forums: Don’t play chess with ‘pigeons’ like Davey.

      • Ron Roy


        There has been an epidemic
        of inflammatory diseases that has paralleled the epidemic on iatrogenic
        immune stimulation with vaccines. Extensive evidence links vaccine
        induced immune over load with the epidemic of type 1 diabetes. More
        recent data indicates that obesity, type 2 diabetes and other components
        of metabolic syndrome are highly associated with immunization and may
        be manifestations of the negative feedback loop of the immune system
        reacting to the immune overload. The epidemic of diabetes/prediabetes
        appears to be accelerating at a time when the prevalence of obesity has
        stabilized, indicating that the negative feedback system of the immune
        system has been over whelmed. The theory of vaccine induced immune
        overload can explain the key observations that have confounded many
        competing hypothesis. The current paper reviews the evidence that
        vaccine induced immune overload explains the disconnect between the
        increase in prediabetes and nonalcoholic fatty liver at a time when the
        obesity epidemic is waning in children.

        • Chris

          Bah, ha, ha, ha, ha!!! It is by Classen, who is a patent troll:

          What is also hilarious the “company” address is a farm at the end of a dirt road on Google maps. I see he moved, a few years ago his “company” was in a nice neighborhood and there was a swimming pool in the backyard.

        • “Vaccine induced immune overload.” Hmmm…so where’s the spike in the 70s-80s birth cohorts then?

          • Learn something. Please. This is a very tired argument from the CDC. It resonates with people who don’t understand the immune system.


            From the report:

            The problem is that the Fewer Antigens argument is scientifically misleading, on many levels:

            1) the argument is driven entirely by the large number of antigens (3002) assigned to the DTwP vaccine, which was replaced with DTaP in 1997 in the United States.

            2) the DTwP antigen count of 3002 is a highball number that was estimated using a very different method than the DTaP antigen count of 5.

            3) the available evidence suggests a strongly nonlinear relationship between Destefano’s antigen type counts and documented adverse reactions to vaccines and clinical measures of immune system stimulation.

            4) the amount and kind of antigen may be more important for stimulating the immune system than the total types of antigens.

            5) last and most important, the narrow focus on antigens ignores the critical role of inflammation in immune system response and the associated increasing use of aluminum adjuvants

          • Chris

            SafeMinds? Really? That is hilarious.

            Oh, would you like to understand why they don’t want you do know about one of the latest studies they funded:

            Environ Health Perspect. 2015 Jun;123(6):579-89. doi: 10.1289/ehp.1408257.
            Examination of the safety of pediatric vaccine schedules in a non-human primate model: assessments of neurodevelopment, learning, and social behavior.

            Read more here (it is a link):

          • I’m already very familiar with it. It’s just another example of researchers covering up data which suggests any vaccine safety issues. The first reports which came out showed various and many significant findings which miraculously went away after the researchers massaged the data. They claimed that new subjects (primates in this case) were added which increased the statistical power of the analyses, however in most cases the additional primates were added as additional analyses, in many cases the statistical group N’s were identical between the earlier and later analyses, yet the findings were dramatically different.

            Here is Safemind’s detailed analysis, see if you can follow along.


          • White_and_Nerdy

            Good news!

            Most people think that they should get their science from actual scientist…many of whom have explained how your link is complete BS.

            Of course most people have the basic literacy skills to see that your link is wrong.

            Then there are folks like you….

          • Chris

            That is hilarious. This is why we laugh at you, Davey.

            None of those people are qualified medical researchers, and they created their group to help with their vaccine court litigation. They have very definite conflict of interests, and have been trying for so long to get “evidence” for it. Even though their particular issue of thimerosal was removed fifteen years ago.

            Yeah, they keep trying even though they had trouble getting that particular bad thing years ago:

            Subject: Thimerosal DTaP Needed
            From: Sally Bernard
            Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2001 00:01:50 -0400
            Yahoo! Message Number: 27456
            Onibasu Link:

            Hi all:

            A group of university-based researchers needs several vials of the older DTaP vaccine formulations which contained thimerosal for a legitimate research study. If anyone knows an MD who might have some of these vaccines or knows where to get them, please email me privately.

            Thank you.

            Sallie Bernard
            Executive Director
            Safe Minds

          • Sonja Henie

            They were going to use expired vaccines?

          • Chris

            I have no idea. But I like this still active Yahoo site because it shows that their “thimerosal is bad” argument is more than fifteen years out of date.

            My pet theory is that they created SafeMinds, got some notoriety and cannot believe that it should be dissolved and they should just go on with their lives. If you read the SafeMind’s board biographies they list all of the news bites they have given to credulous reporters, and gloss over that their lack of qualifications.

            The authors of that “paper” include one registered nurse with a master’s in social work, and two business major types.

          • Sonja Henie

            Yeah, my question was kinda rhetorical. Stupid to do an experiment with expired vaccine.

          • Chris

            And it is stupid to bang on and on and on about something that was a non-issue fifteen years ago. But we are speaking of the leaders of the American anti-vax movement.

          • They were going to analyze the older vaccine’s actual mercury content. Good grief.

          • Sonja Henie

            How do you know that, Dave? Wouldn’t that have already been done? Why yes, see here:
            ” A vaccine containing 0.01% thimerosal as a preservative contains 50
            micrograms of thimerosal per 0.5 mL dose or approximately 25 micrograms
            of mercury per 0.5 mL dose.”

            God knows what they were going to use this expired vaccine for! It doesn’t say in Chris’ link.

          • I know that because I know some of the folks from Safeminds. But it’s also kinda obvious. I understand how much ethyl-mercury is contained in thimerosal, the point was to measure the actual content in real-world vaccines.

            You say that request was 4 years after thimerosal was taken out? The request is from 2001 correct? When do you think thimerosal was taken out? They decided to take it out in 2001, however they also decided to continue using old stocks until they ran out…wouldn’t want to waste product. Mercury-containing pediatric vaccines were still being used well into 2003. It’s still relevant even today because nearly half the flu shots still contain mercury, and mercury-containing vaccines, including pediatric vaccines, are still exported to other countries the world over.

          • Sonja Henie

            So I read the memo wrong and saw 2005 when it was really 2001. So shoot me!

            Anyway, Diagonal Dave, all vaccines have expiration dates, and I find your sarcasm about not wanting to waste vaccine obnoxious. Vaccines are discarded when they expire, you azz-hat. All the research says thimerosal is safe in the amounts in vaccines. About 2/3 of US flu vaccine is thimerosal-free.

          • White_and_Nerdy


            15 years later and neither safe minds or Davey have bothered to talk to qualified scientists and ask about this proposed testing….

            It is exactly like they all know it is completely stupid but figure they can still con a few people….


          • White_and_Nerdy

            What would they measure? Free mercury?

            Good grief:
            You have zero understanding of what you you speak.

            You also lack the integrity to even try and get the facts correct.

            Thanks again for making a complete fool of yourself!


          • They were going to measure actual measured ethyl-mercury content.

          • White_and_Nerdy


            Your comment demonstrates your failure to have even the most basic understanding of the topic!

            Now is where you try to rationalize why it is ok for you to not bother checking your chemistry with actual chemists….as if the facts change just because you choose ignorance….

          • Now try to respond without the ad hominem attacks, see if you can discuss the issue and the contents of Safemind’s response intelligently. See the problem here is that this would actually require you to understand the issue as well as Safemind’s response.

            I have yet to see one single ditto-head pseudo-skeptic pro-vaccine zealot even attempt to rebut any of Safemind’s arguments.

          • Chris

            That was not an “ad hominem” attack. I did not comment that you were wrong because you were a NVIC sycophant. I commented that you were wrong because SafeMinds was wrong.

            I pointed out with verifiable evidence (that is a direct quote from the listed website!) that they are going on about a vaccine component that was removed over fifteen years ago. They are out of date.

            The rest was an “insult” because you are too stupid to understand that it was out of date and why that was relevant. This is why we laugh at you. Laughing at you is a natural reaction to your idiocy, and is not an ad hominem.

            Thanks for the additional giggles because you have no clue what “ad hominem” means.

          • Chris


            Of course it takes a bit more thinking to realize that mortality data have nothing to do with incidence (morbidity), and only measures improvements in medical care. That includes things like inventing iron lungs and antibiotics.

          • And antitoxin in the case of diphtheria.

          • Chris


          • White_and_Nerdy


            Consider the section Findings (a)

            The assertion that one should have more confidence in a smaller sample is a blatant lie.

            Fortunately one has to a fool of epic proportions to fall for the abject BS from your link.

            Bottom line: your dishonest link doesn’t stand up to even the most child like critical evaluation…. But it fooled you!


          • White_and_Nerdy

            Surprise! You give us a scam link that preys upon folks that can’t count the number of antigens!

            Thanks again for publicly humiliating the anti-vacs.


          • Sonja Henie

            In addition, there’s all this mental gymnastics. The AVs rampage on about antigens, so you show there are fewer antigens now than in the glory days of the 1980s, and they come up with some other objections. And so forth.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            I would be happy if we could get the AVs to count correctly.


          • It’s not about just counting antigens, a true immunologist understands this. But even if one accepts the CDC’s misguided and disingenuous argument here, they cannot even count the antigens correctly. It’s not so much a lack of accuracy as a lack of ethics.

          • White_and_Nerdy

            But they tried and failed to count correctly.

            No rational person would take scientific advise from some one that can’t count–but you do!

            A person with integrity would ask immunologists how does one count antigens…but you didn’t, instead you just made things up again.

            Intellectually your posts are zeroes, morally they are less than zero.

            Thanks and keep up the good work humiliating the anti-vaccs!


          • Proponent
          • And that would be the sum total of what you actually understand about this issue.

            Safeminds wrote up a very comprehensive report on what was wrong with the final publications whose results differed markedly with the earlier reports, abstracts and presentations.

            Here is a summary article:


            Here is their full report (I know Proponent won’t read it, this is for readers who are interested in what actually happened here):


          • Proponent

            Read it.. it’s backpedaling crap.

            King me biatch!

          • White_and_Nerdy

            Well I know it shouldn’t be possible to finish middle school and believe your BS….but then those are the folks being scammed by the anti-vaccs.


        • Link to abstract or provide PMID number so we can all see that quote in situ.

        • kfunk937

          OMICS? Sure it’s a step above your usual whale, but still.

        • “Extensive evidence links vaccine
          induced immune over load with the epidemic of type 1 diabetes” Then diabetes must be RIFE in Mumbai and Delhi – right*? Because the incidence of infectious diseases in those places in children under 5 is so high, that oral polio vaccines hardly work because of getting out-competed by endemic enteroviruses. And if THAT doesn’t cause immune overload, what would? Certainly not a few childhood vaccinations!!


          • Ron Roy

            It’s vaccines that cause the immune overload not the diseases themselves.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            What utter drivel.

            Explain, with evidence, how a vaccine, with fewer antigens than even one single virus (let alone the numbers of viruses that attack everybody all the time) can be worse for the immune system than actual diseases?

          • “Vaccines stimulate the last line of defense…”: you don’t really know very much about immunology, do you? And I teach immunology, so I might be expected to have been quite well educated, in fact.

            The truth is that live vaccines do what disease agents do, they’re just gentler – so they aren’t pathogenic. Meaning the iimmunity elicited is the same as what the disease agent would elicit. Killed vaccines are better at eliciting antibody-based (=humoral) responses, but that can hardly be called the last line of defence.

    • Proponent

      That would be.. *slew, not ‘slue’.

      “As nouns the difference between slew and slue is that slew is (us) a large amount or slew can be the act, or process of slaying while slue is the act of sluing or the place to which something has slued.”

      You’re welcome.. helping others.. it’s.. what I do.

      … …

      Oh, and this..

      Vaccine | “Do immunisations reduce the risk for SIDS? A meta-analysis.

      CONCLUSIONS: Immunisations are associated with a halving of the risk of SIDS. There are biological reasons why this association may be causal, but other factors, such as the healthy vaccinee effect, may be important. Immunisations should be part of the SIDS prevention campaigns.”

      • Neo

        It must be just a coincidence that a baby dies shortly after its scheduled vaccine.
        You know…. come to think about it …….vaccines are the most coincidentall drug on the market.
        Except of course that vaccines eradicated diseases….no coincidence there right!!

        • White_and_Nerdy

          Hey, for way more than a decade I have been referring antivaccs to information on how to determine what are real adverse events.

          So far zero antivaccs have been willing to learn. This can’t be a coincidence.

          The only possible conclusion is that the antivaccs know parents are being lied to….but the antivaccs just don’t care…


  • AutismDadd al adjuvants

  • sabelmouse

    well, there was a mumps children’s book in the 50s. when people till knew what’s what and weren’t being so silly as to believe the mmr’s [not the vaccine combo] will kill us

    • Tigger_the_Wing

      Please tell my late classmates how measles, mumps and rubella were harmless.

      …Oh, wait, you can’t, can you? Because they are dead.

      • sabelmouse

        really? when and where was that? what were their living conditions ectr. i certainly did NOT have that experience in germany in the 60s/70s.

        • Tigger_the_Wing

          The death rate during the fifties and sixties wasn’t high – but it wasn’t zero, either. Although most people probably didn’t know anyone who had died, I did. Why is that so hard to understand? Every child who did die of what is now a vaccine-preventable disease, for which there were no vaccines at the time, had friends and family, yes?

          One of the reasons I’m so much in favour of vaccines is because I saw what happened when there weren’t any.

          • sabelmouse

            it was very close to zero and could probs have been reduced more by more improvements in living conditions for the poor.
            now we have children dying from the vaccine as well as live long chronic illnesses.
            with families trying to cope and wondering what will happen to their disabled grown children once the parents are dead.

          • Tigger_the_Wing

            A hundred people a year in just one smallish country is not very close to zero – two people dying unnecessarily from a preventable disease every week, not to mention the suffering and disabilities caused amongst the other half a million afflicted, had nothing to do with living conditions which were pretty damned good.

            Who dies from the vaccine? Nobody.

            Life-long chronic illnesses always existed; the near-normal lengths of those lives, and the fact that we are now living near-normal lives in the community, are caused by people being given modern scientific medicine to counteract what nature is trying to do to us (diabetics died young, other people spent their lives in hospitals and other institutions).

            Again, you are coming across as callous about other people, only caring about whether your unevidenced feelings are pandered to.

          • sabelmouse

            it’s not the size of the country but the number of infected that counts.
            and roughly 100 have died from the vaccine this century, but nobody from the actual measles,despite outbreaks.
            chronic illness in children,teens, and youngish people has become rampant.
            lol! you actually lie about numbers.

          • Sonja Henie

            Roughly 100 have died from the vaccine in the 2000s? Please document, and not VAERS, which you KNOW does not show causation.

          • “roughly 100 have died from the vaccine this century, but nobody from the actual measles,despite outbreaks” – what UTTER and complete garbage!! You know that measles was one the Big 6 killers among childhood diseases, as recently as 25 years ago? Now it’s almost gone – BECAUSE OF VACCINES. And I’ve been teaching virology all that time, and it has been wonderful to watch.

          • sabelmouse

            measles hasn’t been a big killer since ww2. who knows what YOU ‘ve been teaching.
            how to trust pharmaceuticals?

          • White_and_Nerdy

            Thanks to the anti-vaccs the US had a huge measles epidemic in 1989-1990.

            Naturally given the big number of deaths( not to mention the ~16% hospitalization rate) the antivaccs are dishonest and assert without data that measles isn’t a big killer.

            Good news: no one with a middle school education could honestly believe the antivaccs.

            Key word: honestly.


          • sabelmouse

            w&n, always good for a laugh. well, in small measures, else it gets boring.

          • Sonja Henie

            It’s still a big killer today in some parts of the world!

          • sabelmouse

            and that’s part of the point. what’s the difference katia?

          • Sonja Henie

            Why don’t you ask Cara, er, Graceds, er, forvaccinesafety, er whatever other names she’s used, biatch?

          • sabelmouse

            not really an answer, is it.
            i know and i know that you know.
            what’s with that adding of biatch that you do. you sound like an elderly white woman trying to be hip. it ain’t working.
            what in the world is the point in a slew of pointless comments that you make.

          • presch

            I was a schoolboy in the 1940’s and 50’s. Most vaccines weren’t
            available back then so most of us caught one or more of the
            infectious diseases that were around at the time.

            During that time one of my close school friends died from complications from measles, another ended up disabled and in calipers after catching
            poliomyelitis .
            A neighbours 10 year old daughter came down with polio and
            ended up in an iron lung for about 10 years. She subsequently
            suffocated to death when there was a power failure that stopped her
            iron lung working and the backup power supply failed.

            All these events were in one community and not uncommon at the time. If this happened now it would make headline news.
            All your anti-vaccination arguments are absolute nonsense… vaccinations save lives! End of story!

          • sabelmouse

            how poor were you?

          • Michael McCarthy

            “roughly 100 have died from the vaccine this century, but nobody from the actual measles”
            I notice your very careful wording of “this century” (meaning since 2001). Your “100 died from the vaccine” nonsense notwithstanding:
            “For the first time since 2003, a person has died from measles in the U.S. A woman in Clallam County in Washington died from pneumonia caused by measles, according to the Washington State Department of Health.”
            “Based on data from the CDC, ten other deaths have included measles as a cause on the death certificate since 2000, the year measles was declared eliminated from the U.S. (no endemic transmission).”
            Imagine that, people HAVE died from the measles (in the US).

          • sabelmouse

            i mean real causes.

          • Michael McCarthy

            care to expound on that thought?

          • JoeFarmer

            Be careful what you wish for…

          • Michael McCarthy

            I’m dying to see what nonsense she comes up with to cover her tracks.

          • kfunk937

            Homeopathy that cured healed her cat?

          • Michael McCarthy

            You know, I suffer from terrible restless leg and the “homeopathic” remedy I get at Walmart is actually preferable to prescription. I know, it is weird.

          • Sonja Henie

            We do not have children dying from the vaccine. If you want to talk about something close to zero, vaccine deaths is it!


      Sablemouse: Usually, when dealing with sick or hurt kiddies, the first order of the day is to reassure them! The fact that children’s books written at a time when kids got mumps opted not to scare the kiddies is not proof that the diseases weren’t dangerous – only that there was no point in scaring kids over something they couldn’t help?

      What loving parent would buy a book that opted to tell kids they may die though? #FollowTheMoney, isn’t that what you say?

      • Mike Stevens

        I wonder if those childrens’ books on mumps from the 50’s told the kids that one in 20 of them would get mumps meningitis, and many of them would go deaf?

        • Pardon?
          Excuse me?
          Speak up!

  • This is wonderful news! And now Mattel can do what the pharmaceutical companies have already done, which is to create and perpetuate new markets for themselves.

    Within a year or two Mattel should come out with Vaccine Injured Barby…the possibilities are endless! You can have Autistic Barby, ADD/ADHD Barbie, Tourettes Barby, Dyslexic Barby, Learning Disabled Barby, Asthmatic Barby, Autoimmune Disorder Barby, Diabetes Barby. You could even have a SIDS Barby which could come complete with his or her own gravestone and obituary!

  • Tigger_the_Wing

    Is this the longest ever comment thread on this site?!

    I can’t quite believe it is still going.

    Thank you to all the wonderful people countering the lies of the pro-disease child haters cult with facts and evidence.

    • Sonja Henie

      No, there’ve been some boards with >1000 posts!

    • kfunk937

      I think so. I quick look through their posts shows the nearest runner-up at 295 comments.

      I love this site, and hope they keep it coming. Ditto on the pro-science commenters, including yourself; although without comments from members of the Society for Disease Promotion, it might get a bit dull.


      • Chris

        There was one quite a while ago that was longer, but when the blog was renamed they were all lost.

        • kfunk937

          I didn’t realise that, having followed you here. I suspect I know who they were before, though. 😉

          • Chris

            It was “TheSpudd” before it was “TheSciencePost.” This site goes under several changes over the year, it reminds me of my stepmother. She loved rearranging the furniture.

            She rearranged my house when I was in the hospital a bit longer after first birth due to complications. My dear hubby stopped her when she started to rearrange the kitchen storage. After she left I put my stuff back to where it belonged. One thing she did was move a tropical plant from a south facing window and put it in the middle of the living room, away from all natural light. Le sigh.

            I had a deja vu moment a few days ago when this site was being “maintained.” Yep, a whole new look! Plus the HTML links are no longer red, but indistinguishable from the other text.

            PS: thanks for the following compliment.

          • kfunk937

            So I suspected.

            I enjoyed your story, too. In return, I offer another: my late FIL banned me from looking after their place while they travelled, because every time they did, my MIL (of blessed memory) and I would conspire to redecorate and update. The first time, it took him quite a while and some prompting to even notice new wallpaper in the bath, so we were emboldened. The second time, he kinda freaked out to find the family room updated, with new wooden blinds and upscale yarncloth walls. We managed one last sneaky change before he dropped the banhammer on my husband and I (and also stopped travelling altogether): a new, energy-efficient refrig to replace their circa 1957 model (in a sparkling, freshly scrubbed kitchen). Disruptive, before it was chic.

            I appreciate your POV, though. My dad bought his wife surprise kitchen appliances and living room furniture, without consulting her–I was shocked that she didn’t mind, and she was puzzled at my reaction.

          • Chris

            Well, you did have his wife, who also lived there, as an accomplice. Hopefully you did not put a coffee table in the most convenient spot for bruising your shin contact (which is where she put the tropical plant, which was literally the darkest spot not in the basement in that little house!). My stepmother was a lovely lady, but sometimes her decisions were quite questionable.

          • shay simmons

            I waited until the spousal unit was deployed to Kuwait and completely rearranged the downstairs furniture (including a few rather pricey purchases). He still brings that up.

          • kfunk937

            A man would. 🙂

            Chris and your husband may share good reason, particularly if the traffic pattern was drastically changed. Barked shins, broken toes, ouch!

          • shay simmons

            He accuses me or pre-emptively spending his SGLI…meh.

          • kfunk937

            Just make him sleep in the trunk again. Big beefy guy will be putty in your hands.

          • shay simmons

            I’m going to get him a kitten.

            (after I get back from Louisiana).

          • kfunk937


            I hadn’t seen you were headed to LA. I look forward to hearing about it. Have a great trip!

          • shay simmons

            I haven’t said anything because I have a conference and a family wedding coming up, so I can’t deploy for another ten days. I’m hoping to be assigned to Madisonville.

          • kfunk937

            Busier than a long-tailed cat in a room fulla rockers, I see. In any case, Madisonville will be lucky to have you.

    • shay simmons

      You should hang out at Science-Based Medicine, Tig.

      My (anecdotal and completely unsupported by rigorous research) opinion is that any post on vaccines, veganism or guns, and the comment section explodes.